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Post by grond on Aug 21, 2009 5:56:27 GMT -5
A new take on a summoner. I think its new any way, I just thought it up this morning Start with a cleric of Obad-Hai, pick 2 elemental domains like earth and fire/water or air and fire/water (never earth and air, or fire and water). After level 7, start taking level in the thaumatergist prestige class. I recommend this be a human since you have to waste a feat on spell focus conjuration. After that continue with cleric. The result is a character who can summon monsters of any alignment, they are double extended (once for the prestige class, and once for the feat) and augmented to boot. Also, this character can turn undead, and any creature with an elemental sub-type other than cold. The rest of his spells should probably be buffs and group buffs. Oh did I forget the best part? He gets to walk around with a called outsider as a loyal cohort, and he has a contingency summoning spell, for example summoning a celestial bear (or 3) as soon as he is flanked by enemies, or disarmed for that matter. Recommend for feats extra turning as it will apply separately to all three turning categories. Also, improved initiative. To my mind, this character would also take improved counterspell, as he is not much of a summoner until after a level of the prestige class kicks in. He is more likely to work toward undoing any enemy casting.
The other way to do this is to have the overall build be cleric 3 wizard 3 mystic theurge 9 thaumatergist 5 (thaumatergist asap) then choose which are preferred, divine spells or arcane for the thaumatergist caster levels. Ultimimately, choosing arcane will prevent you from getting greater planar ally, which will limit choices for you cohort. Also, you will lose out big time on the turning features. He is a more diverse caster, but not as powerful.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 21, 2009 11:12:20 GMT -5
Something like this?
Human Cleric of Obad Hai, True Neutral
Cleric 1-7/Thaumaturgist 1-5/Cleric 8-15
1: Spell Focus (Conjuration) 3: Improved Counterspell 6: Extend Spell 9: Extra Turning 12: Improved Initiative 15: Empower Spell 18: Enlarge Spell
STR 10 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 16 +5 for levels CHA 14
Looks nice with full spellcasting progression, full CL, good WIS for DCs, nice CHA for turning, and even an extra skill point from INT. I threw in Improved Initiative so that you can get started summoning earlier in the order, Extend Spell so that summons and buffs last longer, Spell Focus functions as a prereq, and Empower Spell gives offensive spells a boost at higher levels. Extra Turning and Improved Counterspell are part of your own blurb, so they are included as well.
Another option is to finish out with Heirophant - it hurts your spell progression a lot, but you don't have to take a full 5 levels of it. I'd just take 3 levels, so that you still get 9th level spells. I am just thinking that using a high level spell slot for a spell like ability to summon would be nice.
One nice thing to remember is that you get access to all of the spell-like abilities of the summoned creatures as well. So go nuts with these to expand your spell list at higher levels!
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Post by grond on Aug 21, 2009 16:30:22 GMT -5
Just go +3 to wisdom for levels, the others should go into charisma for turning and the diplomacy check for using the planar ally spells. Also, extra turning should be the #2 level 1 feat, leaving the level 9 feet open to something else. I'm curious about your choice of Enlarge Spell. I would try to fit Combat Casting in somewhere in that plan, but then I don't play casters very often. I like Heirophant for an option, except that it also costs advancement for turning purposes doesn't it? Turning on this character is already strained in the turning department by the 5 levels of thaumaturgist, so I personally wouldn't take that loss.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 21, 2009 17:48:13 GMT -5
Turning has never seemed like a big deal to me... but that is just me, after all. Enlarge is to extend range on spells, but hardly necessary. If human, then its all good, since humans get the extra bonus feat at level 1., thus speeding up the progression of feats and such.
I still think that core summoning is busted with the full round casting time and all. Also, a druid might make a better core summoner, given the goodness that is summon natures ally in the early levels. I think the important thing to look for is the SLAs of the monsters being summoned - they seem much more important than the meager tanking that any of these creatures can do, or the flank bonus they provide. They'll never be damage dynamos, that's for sure.
Honestly for this concept, I like the Malconvoker out of Complete Scoundrel, though I know that is not core. Or the rapid summoning variant of Unearthed Arcana for the specialist conjurer. Summoning is the one of the suxor things in core, in my humble opinion, given the casting time, the lameness of the summons, etc. The thing about some of the splat stuff is that they did some of it to fix broken stuff or crummy stuff in the core rules, which is good. Course, they also break a bunch of other stuff too, so...
PS - was figuring eventually a +WIS item of 6 and a +5 tome for inherent bonus, since we are eventually looking for 20 levels. WIth 16 base + 5 level + 5 tome + 6 item you have a 32 WIS as the final score, for a bunch of bonus spells and a ridiculous save DC on high end spells. These kind of bonuses are not unreasonable for the upper levels, in a normal game with standard amounts of loot and treasure.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 21, 2009 18:56:12 GMT -5
And Combat Casting sucks in my humble opinion - if Concentration checks are that big a deal, then I suggest Skill Focus; it's one less of a bonus, but a lot more useful and less situational. So I am less than worried about turning - I can do other things to thump undead or other turnable creatures, like buff/debuff/blast/summon. If turning is a major concern, then I say skip Thaumaturgist entirely - any class that does not advance turning ruins a turner build, from my experience. Turning, like summons, loses a lot of power at higher levels. When stuff gets turn resistance, and higher HD it becomes a heck of a lot harder to turn. I think that your build does it, for core at least, as well as it gets done... which shows why the alternate class features, feats, and other PrCs were so darn necessary, honestly. * * * * * * * Looking back at my bard build, 2 things stand out - first, their is no need to take a proficiency in whip, since you get it for free at level 1. Second, I would definitely drop the finesse and boost STR, so that when not whipping the baddies silly I could 2 hand something like a longsword (so I could switch between weapons) or bigger and badder like a falchion or greatsword (for damage). I think the songs are important - especially inspire courage, since it modifies to hit and damage rolls. Disarm is an opposed ATTACK roll... so add your bard song bonus to the check, along with the bonus from Imp Disarm and the whip (total of +6 IIRC), and BAM... killer disarming bard. In retrospect, I wonder if 19 levels of bard and the aasimar race aren't better for this, specifically in the point buy system. Realistically you only want a 16 CHA, so the +2 CHA and +2 WIS are great, as is the darkvision. You can pump your STR to 16, your CON and INT to 14, DEX to 12, WIS at 10. When you make get the 16 STR you have a +3 bonus, plus the +4 from the feat and the +2 from the whip, in addition to your song bonus and BAB. Like said, I hate giving up a CL for anything, but this is kind of a cool character concept, the celestial singer. You can also use the longsword in 2 hands for direct damage, getting bonus x1.5 from STR. Sorry, kinda rambly, I'm tired tonite and need to get some sleep.
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Post by grond on Aug 22, 2009 12:28:59 GMT -5
The part about the thaumaturgist that I like is mainly the planar cohort. Carefully selected, it has the potential to give you something like an Efreet, or perhaps a Kolyarut. I'm not absolutely certain, as I haven't yet studied up on the options that greater planar ally gives. The contingent conjuration is otherwise impossible for a cleric, unless I missed something. Finally, the turning doesn't really cost anything other than an action, and having 5 different qualifying target types makes it much more likely to be useful (elementals I believe never have turn resistance) especially against hard to fight critters like an invisible stalker. I agree, summoning is just about the most difficult thing to accomplish in core only, but when you can summon a celestial lion or bear to cover you for a round, and you have a party of adventurers to back you, it seems to me that it is worth the casting time. I see your point with combat casting. As far as the bard is concerned, dragon disciple is a seriously valid option. I mean a 15 foot reach for disarming is great, but a 15 ft reach from the air seems better to me. Not to mention an extra +8 racial bonus to strength. The caster level suffers, but you get bonus spell slots and if you stick with cures, that adds up to serious longevity. His armor class would be rather remarkable since he gets a natural armor bonus as well as magical light armor. I know the dragon disciple is a little on the cheeseball side of things, but if you want a magic using melee master, that is around the best way I can think of.
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Post by Rincewind on Aug 22, 2009 21:39:17 GMT -5
OK, now that I see what you're doing with this, I'll have a go.
I like a Ranger/Rogue mix. They go together well, and their abilities can very nicely complement each other. Both often wear light armor and are skill-focused, so you can use many of the same ability scores for both classes. One fun way to do things:
Ranger with two-weapon fighting and rogue levels. You try to flank for some extra sneak attack damage, and if you can't use another party member, you can use your underpowered pet for this purpose. This mix also lets you be quite stealthy and is a good build for a scout if done differently.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 24, 2009 10:49:34 GMT -5
Coupla ways to do this that I like, though not everyone will agree with me I think.
Rogue10/Ranger10
This gets a BAB of +17 for 4 attacks, +5d6 sneak attack, improved evasion (as my special ability at rogue 10), and decent saves in everything except Will (likely take Iron Will at some point). Skills are also strong, especially if you alternate the levels so that your rogue skills can stay up to par. The only question (one that I answer yes) is whether or not the combat style from Ranger counts as the feat for the purposes of prereqs - can you take greater TWFing if you meet the other prereqs? If not, looking at Ranger 11/Rogue 9 starts to look a lot better... even without Improved Evasion.
Rogue13/Ranger7
Loses a BAB point but gets more sneak attack (+7d6), still gets 2 extra attacks without needing to burn the feats for TWFing and Imp TWFing, better skill points, but fewer HP by a few.
Really most mixes have some benefit or another, and some drawback. Another possibility is to take the archery path and use a two hander for max damage.
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Post by grond on Aug 24, 2009 15:57:47 GMT -5
In 3.0 evasion stacked, so 2 different sources giving evasion added up to improved evasion. I sort of think that this is still true of 3.5 If it is, then you can get away with something like defensive roll, skill mastery or crippling strike.
Here is another rogue mix, though you probably need a serious RP excuse for it. Rogue/monk. The point of it is to make use of stunning fist and flurry of blows to deal sneak attack damage. Once again, a wounding kama at high levels is like a best friend. This character doesn't have a very high base attack bonus (same as a cleric) but he has good skills and doesn't have to worry nearly as much about beating DR since he gets good damage dice. Also, he is pretty fast as a monk and winds up with improved evasion and improved uncanny dodge. All that is left is figuring out the mix. 10 each is a good place to start. The other problem is that you must decide where to abandon monk and once that decision is made it is made. I would always say it should go at least far enough to have improved evasion (7 I think). As long as you leave enough levels to get to rogue 10, slippery mind is the way to go. If your monk is like Dmitri's was, this gives you a second chance to reroll a relatively high save.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 24, 2009 18:34:22 GMT -5
Well, I can see this pairing (rogue-monk) actually relatively easily. Sometimes I think we give the rogue only the one definition, and we ought to be a little more broad with him.
If you think about it, a rogue could easily burn his 8 + INT mod skill points on Diplomacy, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, UMD, Jump, Climb, Balance, Swim, etc. All this without locks and traps and the like. So you have an acrobat that fits really well with the monk class, both thematically and mechanically.
As for alignment, it is really easy to imagine this rogue as lawful. In fact, a trapfinding thief could just as easily be played as a lawful member of the DnD equivelent of the CIA. Frankly, I think alignment restrictions on most classes are bogus - even paladins, in my opinion, should have been made with some sort of alignment dependent variables, maintaining the idea of a champion of an ideal, not limited to lawful good.
So 11 levels of monk gets you greater flurry, 1d10 unarmed strike, and all the basic goodies. 9 levels of rogue gets you +5d6 sneak attack, more skills, improved uncanny dodge.
Or you could do this with less monk, though I'd have a hard time taking less than 9 so that I lost the penalties to flurry. You already lose a little BAB in this whole thing anyway.
The biggest problem is that you get rogue stuff so late that it seems to me as though you really only hit your stride after most DnD games are over. I think this kind of character shows what a splat book can be good for - stuff like the Ascetic Rogue feat can help a character concept like this be playable across twenty levels, which is nice.
But in core only, this is how it would work. The other option would be to reverse the order, but interweaving them makes much more sense.
Or, if you really like this, be evil and go into the Assassin PrC at some point without rogue levels, by cross classing the Disguise requirement. Alternatively, with just one rogue level (which an ex-monk is natural for) you can buy the Disguise ranks 1:1 and head in with 1d6 sneak attack already in hand. The stats for this would be rough, though - needs a good DEX, and STR, and CON, and INT, and WIS. With a 32 point buy you'd be looking at 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 10.
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Post by Rincewind on Aug 24, 2009 19:32:38 GMT -5
It's much harder to do stat-wise, but a wizard/monk is quite fun. What you'd want to do is start out with Wizard, but only go until level 3 or so, then switch to Monk. This will give you a host of useful utility spells, as well as some which can be nice for battle.
Just one example- cast Protection from Evil and Mage Armor on yourself before a fight. Mmmmm.
To do this build, you only need a 12 for your int, since you're not a great wizard anyway and you won't be casting high-level spells. This lets you focus more on your physical abilities. Fun note- there are so many low-level buff spells you can use on yourself that this has endless possibilities! One you may not have thought of- Alter Self lets you become a humanoid of one size category larger or smaller than yourself for 10 minutes/level. So at 3rd casting level, you can get the damage of a higher sized creature for half an hour, which can be very handy if a monk wants to deal out some punishment.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 24, 2009 20:46:37 GMT -5
Yea, alter self is pretty sweet, and frankly highly broken if you pick a race with a type other than humanoid, like outsider. I like the idea for a larger monk, and you also get some of the other features, like natural armor and such.
Cleric/monk is also an interesting idea, given the wisdom synergy. I would totally dump charisma and turning, go for level 7 or 9 cleric (for 4th or 5th level spells, respectively). Divine Favor and Divine Power get pretty darn good for the monk/cleric hybrid, especially since you get the AC bonus from WIS when unarmored.
The spells are also killer, since you get all the animal buffs, debuffs like Doom, other buffs like Bless, Aid, Shield of Faith, etc. Even at level 4 you get nice stuff like Poison (deliver melee touch as part of a flurry?), and if you go to 5 levels of spells you get Righteous Might. Again, better if you can interlace levels (if a PC came to me with this and asked, I'd say yes), but workable without it - go cleric and then monk for my taste, though the other way works too, I suppose.
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Post by grond on Aug 24, 2009 21:26:01 GMT -5
My thought is that rogue abilities are often immediately and infinitely useful, so as a level 11 character getting your 1st sneak attack damage, but already doing the monk's d10 (or d8 at that point?) you are gaining a definite bonus. You are still growing stronger and more useful as a character. Also, the stunning DC keeps on improving even after you stop leveling as a monk (since it is based on character levels). Uncanny dodge is great early, but it is great late too. You miss out on rogue special abilities (a lot of which I think of as being quite excellent) and the higher level monk stuff like adamantine ki strike, but you have a monk that can open locks and undo traps, if you take the skills for it, has almost no equipment requirement (periapt of wisdom +6 probably sometime) and can do anything from retrieval to hard combat. Add use magic device and a few wands of curing, haste, enlarge, whatever. Maybe a scroll of tenser's transformation? I think core or splat enhanced is about even. Sure, he doesn't do all of the "unique" stuff until high level, but in the meanwhile he isn't a halfway crippled monk/rogue with no abilities and no bab at the lower levels. Pick a multiple of 4 to switch classes at and he suffers no penalty to base attack bonus. Cleric monk also sounds frightening. What about a druid monk though? Any thoughts on this? Would the increased unarmed monk damage apply to the druid in wild shape? At the very least he can eventually manage greater magic fang on his own natural weapons, as well as bull's strength for attack and damage and owls wisdom for stunning fist DC (druids get the wisdom buff don't they?)
Finally, one since we're talking about making melee casters, give this one a thought. Wizard 3 Druid 3 Mystic theurge (wizards get all knowledge skills, so that covers knowledge religion). This one has access to huge variety of buffing spells, a few sustained damage ones, spontaneous summoning to help litter the battle field, and automatic proficiency with a decent martial weapon, the scimitar. Any of the spells that transfers a short term magical property would be really useful, it would get tenser's tranformation (I know I'm the only one who really likes that spell) and it has the opportunity to get an awesome spell combination with Prismatic Wall and Repel Metal. I think of this as a transmuter sort who would favor using the Iron Wood spell and the Wood Shape spell to make his weapons. He would also Heat/Chill Metal, Warp Wood, and other material affecting spells to ruin his opponents' equipment, and would probably even waste higher level spell slots on quickening low level combat buffs.
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Post by grond on May 9, 2010 13:35:41 GMT -5
Okay, I'm going to add another one I've been thinking over. This is hardly anything new, but I think I have a new trick to add to it. The arcane trickster. Yes, we've seen them. My thought is to have a halfling arcane trickster, who casts reduce person on himself, uses the hide skill to fit in corners that a house cat would fit in, and then take advantage of sneak attack with a bow. I think of him as sort of the opposite to pokey the longspear sorcerer, but he is basically the same idea. He takes full advantage of size modifiers and totally bypasses the weakness in damage dealing that goes with being small. This character can easily enjoy a dexterity score higher than 20 at relativey low levels, thanks to the halfling dex bonus, and the bonus to dex that comes with reduce person (I think it does anyway, can't double check my books right now) and has a +2 size bonus. Give him point blank shot and weapon focus for his bow when he can afford it and he will be attacking with a fighter-like bonus (2 from size, 2 from feats, 5 or 6 or more from dex) despite his fairly poor base attack bonus. The worst thing he suffers from is a terribly low grapple modifier, but most of his AC is touch AC, and it is fairly high, plus he can use mirror image and displacement and possibly blink to protect/enhance himself. Add haste, or rapid shot into the mix (or both) and he can make a generous number of attacks at 2 less than his highest bonus, hopefully all of which will do sneak attack damage. DR anything, and those not vulnerable to sneak attacks are is worst enemies, but with a decent array of spells, he can fall back on party buffing and self defense instead. I know it is hardly a groundbreaking idea, but I think this character would easily augment any party, or make an excellent enemy to use against a party. I figure he starts out rogue for 2 levels, goes into wizard for 3, back to rogue, and then rounds himself out as needed for the PrC.
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Post by Rincewind on May 11, 2010 9:51:14 GMT -5
I was doing something similar with Locksley in concept- he was an illusion specialist and was nearly always fighting with Improved Invisibility activated for some very nice sneak attacks with the bow.
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