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Post by grond on Jun 15, 2009 21:26:40 GMT -5
Just a thought, but supposing one took a sorceror that knows a transmutation buff spell in every spell level he has access to, gave him a long spear, or at the expense of a feat one of the martial polearms, and set him up with the following tactic; Each round, from the start, use a move action to take the sorceror out of reach of any non charging attack, then cast a buffing spell with the standard action. Use the attacks of opportunity to deal any damage. Use the following spells, Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, True Strike, Cats Grace, Bulls Strength, Heroism, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Fire Shield and so on. I know a bunch of those turn out not to be transmutations, but the idea is that this caster keeps his distance and thoroughly harasses any threat that comes near his melee reach. He is able to cast spells and make melee attacks in the same round, while getting continuously better at hitting. Combat Reflexes and good dex are musts, along side opening with enlarge person. The increase in size gives the sorceror with a reach weapon a 20ft reach, allowing him to attack at 20ft and 15ft. If one wishes to truly push the envelope, make the sorceror take ewp for spiked chain at level 3, and then he will be able to make three attacks of opportunity against any single approaching foe, before that foe could ever reach him. I would recommend improved initiative, rather than a weapon focus feat, if this character is human (he should be, since this is a little of a thinly stretched build). I suspect that a weapon proficiency that sorcerors don't have would be better than a normal longspear (and quite possibly necessary) at higher levels. If you have to take a weapon proficiency feat, it might as well be spiked chain, so wasting an early feat on a weapon focus feat for a weapon you'll stop using is a little stupid. The high dex requirement to make this work lends itself to later taking weapon finesse anyway, and the spike chain is the only reaching weapon that works with weapon finesse. Additionally, using a good summon spell, whatever level turns out the best result, dividing the full round casting into 2 standard actions over 2 rounds could make for an effective strategy. So this is my chain swinging, show boating, interupt the flow of combat sorceror.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 16, 2009 8:01:04 GMT -5
Why, out of curiosity, are you going with Sorc? Wizzy might be better, specialist transmuter, ban Evocation and maybe Necromancy since you don't need direct damage and you don't sound like you are trying to debuff, with a level of fighter for flair and proficiencies. Ends up as a Wizzy5/Fighter1/Eldritch Knight10, wrap up with fighter for more of a melee guy or wizard for more of a caster/backup fighter. Loses 2 caster levels out of 20 my way, but you still get 9th level spells. In a 32 point buy, you'd be looking at starting with
INT 16, STR, 14, CON 14 WIS 10 CHA 10 DEX 14
if I was building it. Need to put points in INT, but you aren't using a lot of saving throw kind of spells, so 19 is all you MUST have. HP is an issue (but it always will be for this kind of build). The instant you can start displacing once self, do so. A cloak eventually would be great.
So bust out the spear, or halbard, or with True Strike, go Power Attack crazy.
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Post by grond on Jun 16, 2009 9:18:17 GMT -5
I was looking at weapon proficiency as an issue at level. Wizards don't have reach weapon. Since the spiked chain is so effective, it is ideal, but it isn't available to use until level 3 for a caster. The wizard would have to settle with a less effective weapon, or wait three levels for the build to do anything like what it is supposed to, or burn a feat on a weapon that he won't be using all of the time. After level 3, the sorceror gets 50% more attacks of opportunity, and before level 3, he already has proficiency with the longspear. As for not getting higher level spells until level 4, the sorceror can make use of many level 1 spells, all spontaneously. It's just a question of level 1 viability. At level 1, the sorceror is viable with less stretching, the wizard is viable, but not with the same tactic, and not as seemlessly. I like the idea of introducing Eldritch knight to this build, I'm thinking of sorceror up to level 8 (level 5 spells aren't as useful to this purpose) then fighter 1, eldritch knight 10, sorceror 1 more. This also gets you up to level 9 spells, time stop, or foresight being the ones I would choose. I see the sorceror version also slowly becoming a tripping build, since he makes his own strength score, and attack bonus never figures into trip, only size and strength. He might be able to trip a giant! Grease is another excellent level 1 spell for this sorceror to take. Another reason to prefer sorceror is that every enemy could require a different set of spells, the sorceror can get every spell he needs, and doesn't need to try to predict the future to know what spells to prepare, he just throws each one down as needed.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 16, 2009 10:25:29 GMT -5
I guess I was thinking at level 1 both would be pretty lame, but was figuring on level 2 being a fighter level, followed by the rest wizard till eldritch knight. But if you like the sorcerer idea, it still works as Sorc1/Fightr1/Sorc5/EldKght10/Sorc3.
The thing I like about the wizard is viability out of combat as well - also, the INT synergizes well with the Expertise line. You get to play utility caster or party taxi, and have room for spells like Teleport or Dimension Door to move around the battlefield.
But your way works too.
A slower way, but better for survivability, though a little different, might be Bard. Better weapon proficiencies, better HD, casting in light armor, and mostly buffing spells, coupled with the singing bard instead of the playing bard. Just a thought for a melee bard - you'll never be a holy terror, by any means, but definitely an interesting idea that I had hashed out a little with Misty before she made the switch to druid. You get free proficiency in WHIP, an oft underused weapon option, which is useful for tripping and disarming with the right feat combos. Granted, it takes a few levels for this to really come into its own, but TWFing with a whip and whatever is kinda nifty, even in it's style.
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Post by grond on Jun 16, 2009 14:30:29 GMT -5
That is good, not quite as overwhelming in appearance as a giant (from the spell) sorceror either. I seemed to think that whips don't do damage through heavier armor though, is that a misconception or a holdout from 3.0? Or is it in 3.5?
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 16, 2009 14:45:15 GMT -5
Yea, whips are lousy for damage, but that is not what you are using the whip for - you are using it to trip and disarm stuff.
You get stuff prone, and then you stab the crap out of it. If you wanna take a level or 2 in fighter, you get the bonus feats, and it makes sense given the martial bard idea. Ranger too, if you want to play a wilderness bard and have the TWF feats.
From a stat standpoint, you only ever need a CHA of 16, since this guy is not targeting spells at enemies that require saves - he is buffing. Extend might be useful, though you don't have a lot of spell levels to lose to it. Also, bards should never forget (nor should anyone else) that Summoned Monsters, especially higher level ones, have spell-like abilities. So from a 28 point build, you can start with 14 in STR and DEX and CON and CHA, and a 10 in WIS and INT. Put 2 points at level ups in CHA, and the rest in STR. With 32 points, bump up STR to 16 to start, or something along those lines. You only need the 15 in CHA at 14th level, and the 16 at 17th I think.
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 16, 2009 14:50:19 GMT -5
Something else I was considering here was that Gish type casters really don't need massive INT or WIS or CHA or whatever their casting stat is. I mean, you get no serious bonus spells that way, and casting spells that require a save is a bad idea. But it frees up points for other stats. Anyway, hardly a great revelation, but something we sometimes forget in our rush to get a HUGE bonus on our casting stat.
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Post by grond on Jun 16, 2009 22:47:08 GMT -5
Low stat dependency, and building a caster that is useful, independant and not so overpowering that he makes the fight pointless for everyone else, were things that were going through my mind when I came up with the "3rd level sorceror who casts spells and attacks 3 times in a round", we'll need a better name than that. I think that the buff spells probably have a lot more potential enjoyment to be gotten out of them than direct damage. Dissintigrate is cool and all, but a little anti climactic when it works. Can you use poisons on a whip, cause they have a base range of 15ft and would make an excellent delivery system for a contact poison.
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 17, 2009 2:03:37 GMT -5
Yea, I like that as well - though I do like disintegrate as a spell, at certain times for certain things. Often times it's the only real direct damage spell my "God" wizard takes, and then it is mainly a utility spell with combat application.
As for poison, I can't see why not, especially if it is contact poison - since it does nonlethal damage (the whip) I can see ruling that "injury" poison is a no-no. Though I don't know - even non lethal could cause cuts, and that is all you'd really need.
Other thing about whips is to remember - they are NOT light weapons, but they can be finessed. Also, they have 15 ft reach, but provoke AoO's from adjacent opponents. So they are hardly perfect.
I like what you did with the sorcerer and the longspear. It is cool and creative, though one would have to play very carefully to not end up obsolete at a certain point, I think.
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Post by grond on Jun 17, 2009 6:49:16 GMT -5
Start adding the mass spells at level 5 and 6 (spells, not class), and then tenser's transformation, or mordenkainen's sword. And part of avoiding obselesence (that has to be spelled wrong, but spell checker isn't getting it) is upgrading to the chain at level 3, in my opinion, since it turns the sorceror into a viable tripper or disarmer. In combat by round 3 his strength should be 20-22, depending on how strength loaded he's been made, and large size with a 2 handed weapon that gives an extra + 2 on disarm should be enough to make up for low attack bonus even without the improved disarm feat. Later on, with the feat, he should be perfectly able to knock the weapon out of an ogre's hand. I almost think though that this character needs to be dex focussed much more than strength, since the unique part is the availability of attacks of opportunity, and one of the spells that helps that, also hinders it (enlarge person reduces dex by 2, costing one AOO per round, but it also expands the reach providing 2 more spaces that will provoke. I don't know, this might be a character someone will have to build and play from level 1 to get the chance to see how it works. It would require a lot cooperation from the other players, or just made up as an NPC villain. If you could use spells to bring his strength up high enough (25 I think) and afford power attack and improved bullrush, he could take Awesome Blow from MM1 and just slap enemies away from himself. For treasure on this one, I think a spell storing ability on the spiked chain would be excellent, add bestow curse to his spell list. One hit and you have a chance to lower an enemies checks attacks and saves by 4.
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 17, 2009 8:45:02 GMT -5
I personally don't care for Tenser's Tranformation - giving up the ability to cast seems like too much for me. I have never used it, but my general theory has always been not to give up casting ability, since that is really the best (only?) thing that a mage has going for it. Mord's Sword... never used it, actually.
You know what would rock with this guy? Evard's Black Tentacles. Toss it down, and beat the crap out of the grappled creatures, or the one's who move at half speed. Web kicks but for the same reason.
The only issue that I can see this sorcerer having is a sort of "why" question.
If you are going for some sort of "crowd control" caster, which is what the AoO's start to sound like - an attempt to control the ebb and flow of the fight with by altering the movement of the enemies - you can do it with your fighters and barbs and a few well placed spells. No reason why you can't enlarge the melee guys, invis the rogue, and then do whatever else you might like, such as grease or a blast or a fog or displacement of some sort.
Now this is not to say that the longspear wielding giant sorcerer is not a rad idea. Wait... I just said rad... anyway, very cool idea. However, it is not a very efficient way (at least from what I see on paper) to do this job. That doesn't mean it isn't playable or awesome or fun... just that it seems like you end up not being very good at casting, and not very good at melee, and no skill points... just have to be REALLY careful with this, IMHO.
Course the same goes for most classes, if you think about it.
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Post by Tomas on Jun 17, 2009 9:01:58 GMT -5
Ah, but efficiency shouldn't be what the game is about. If the character has a reason to be a long spear wielding sorcerer then play him that way. Who cares if it isn't "perfect" as long as you have fun playing him.
Of course I feel preplanning a character to lvl 20 is silly anyway, but that is just me.
Tom
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 17, 2009 10:22:10 GMT -5
Touche, efficiency is sometimes overemphasized. It does become an issue in the mixed parties that often come up in gaming.
Example:
The party is a cleric, a sorcerer, a wizard, and a rogue.
Personalities - Cleric is a optimizer type, through and through. Sorcerer is always looking for nifty creative ways to play a character. Rogue is an actor type, always looking to explore the attitudes and ideas of his character. Wizard is looking for the quickest way to get a job done, a teamwork guy, but still sees the game as "winnable" by the party.
Now, in my opinion, none of these people are playing the game wrong. Some will smack the optimizer type, but even he has a place - with his own kind, with a DM who enjoys the challenge they present. Ideally, everyone at the table would have a group of their own mentality to game with - but we often do not.
The problem is not that people play DnD differently - the problem lies in the "escalation" that the DM resorts to. I think that the sorc and rogue could get along easily enough, while wizzy might have to tone it down a bit - but mr cleric simply doesn't fit this group, or they don't fit him, either way. Either the DM or the other players have to adjust or else this game will be miserable. See below:
The cleric builds a monster-killer with perfect application of the ruleset to create a massively powerful PC. The sorc is our spear wielding giant. The rogue has focused on skills like diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, etc, and taken a lot of feats to buff them up. His attack bonus is low, damage is negligible, he loves to do really nifty things - his name is Lint Dryer. The wizard is built well but hardly to the optimizers standard, has a personality and fits into the world, but plays to end combat with minimal damage taken to all and quickly.
The DM throws a standard level encounter at the party. The cleric/monster wades into combat after busting out his spells, the sorc goes Large, the rogue fixes his wagon, and the wizard buffs the cleric or locks down the monsters. The battle gets won, though the wiz took no damage, the cleric took little, and the sorc took a lot (low AC and HP and all). DM sees the ease of this encounter, and buffs em up a bit. Now the sorc is nearly dead, and the wizzy is happy because he finally feels threatened. Rogue is still exploring the inner workings of the craft (basketweaving) and profession (chimneysweep) skill, and cleric is loving the fact that he is getting more and more XP and loot, which only make him stronger in his war with the DM. This continues to escalate until the Sorc is dead, the Cleric is assaulting opposing gods directly, the wizzy has become an efficiency expert, and Lint is lost in Alba, creating an Industrial Revolution.
OK, maybe this is an exaggeration, and it is certainly intended to be funny, so don't take it too seriously. But I think it is accurate in most respects. It seems to happen in the best of games and the worst of games. Even Alba has gotten a little more intense at times, though I try personally to add the battleground elements instead of badass enemies.
All that said, if I was really doing exactly what I wanted with every character, I'd be a far more "method acting" character - that said, I have to be able to survive and contribute in the party as well. It's hard - taking Alertness or Self-Sufficient or Run is a great character choice, but in place of Extend Spell or Empower or even Imp Init?
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Post by grond on Jun 17, 2009 10:50:56 GMT -5
The skill feats seem more and more to be for low power games, or to help a fighter with something challenging, and while run gets trashed on, it's because there are almost never occasions where the party is fleeing waves of arrows at top speed to reach shelter, only to realize that there are rogues with bows waiting in the field (normal running leaves a character flat footed). These situations could happen and be devastating, but they don't. Also, part of the reason sorceror was my choice (not beat an undead horse) is for adaptability. The sorceror can choose the most effect approach from his arsenal every time, and doesn't need to worry about wasting that one really good spell he prepared. He has it, he needs it, he casts it. Same problem again? No problem, at least for the sorceror. They just have to pick very carefully. Also, getting into those higher levels and competing with the DMs escalation, by the time those levels are achieved, the sorceror can enlarge everyone with one spell, and serve as melee backup after he finished buffing. And for tenser's transformation, that's more of a 4th round of combat survival bid. Sure he can't cast, but he's big and buff and brutal and if he takes a web or a tenticle spell his enemies are hampered. The fact that most of the spells are buffs means that this sorceror can also make the fighters and barbs more dangerous at low levels by helping them rather than himself. I think he comes into his own by level 6, and becomes less important at level 12-14. Also, not to nit pick specifics, but in the above outlined situation, if there was a competent rogue, not basket weaving ninny, mr. spear and spell would fill a viable roll being one of three non traditional combat characters. It would be like a party with 2 fighters, 1.5 arcane casters and 2/3rds of healer, at least the way I look at it. I mean it isn't like they would be taking on the Terrasque. Anyway, I think we beat that horse pretty hard.
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Post by Tomas on Jun 17, 2009 12:10:01 GMT -5
Well, I for one was laughing out loud reading the party description.
I also agree that not every player is going to be happy in every party. A player just has to hope the DM is up to the task of keeping things running smoothly.
Tom
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