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Post by grond on Jun 10, 2009 13:59:24 GMT -5
Dmitri's interesting character builds inspired me to get this rolling. I'd like to collect ideas for interesting character development from a mechanical perspective, and really take a good look at some of the more often overlooked concepts and features of the core rulebooks in 3.5 e. I'm interested in various feat combinations, different uses of skills, spell combinations and general tactics that I feel often fall by the wayside in the name of building exotic, or highly powerful or highly focused characters. I'd like anyone to feel free to contribute character building techniques, feat combinations, spell combinations or even just interesting equipment ideas that they have come across or used that have been helpful or effective, or even just plain fun. Keep in mind, I'm trying to make this an exploration of the core rule books, so I'd like to limit its content to that. While all of the unique classes feats and prestige classes in supplement books do add additional flavor and diversity to the game and to our characters, I'd really like to take a closer look at how much the fundementals truely have to offer. Sorry for the long winded intro.
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Post by grond on Jun 10, 2009 14:28:51 GMT -5
Here is an excellent example of a feature that always seems to fall by the wayside; Mounted combat and the ride skill (did I use semicolon correctly? did I spell it right?) Most of the time, mounted combat seems to be left of D&D adventures. The common causes for it that I have heard are that it is too complicated to use, there is never enough space in a dungeon to fit a mount, and mounts always die in combat because they don't have enough hit points. They seem like a general nuissance. Consider this; the common mount is a heavy war horse, which is a large creature. Many of the monsters found in the monster manual, and thus populating dungeons, are also large creatures. If an ogre can get into an area, so can a horse, normally. Also, a mount does not need to be galloping about to give the rider a definate advantage. Even at fairly low levels, the cost of mundane equipment is almost negligeable, most of the time. Therefore, it really isn't hard to imagine purchasing decent barding (armor) for a mount. Also, the mounted combat feat allows your mount to avoid damage with a ride check. Finally, if the mount dies, you can buy a new one. The trade off for going through the trouble of having a mount is a variety of advantages that prove useful regardless of level. With the right equipment (a lance) a character on a mount needs only a few ranks in ride to get a good chance to do considerable damage by charging. The ride skill allows a mounted character to gain the benefit of cover anytime, even when it isn't their turn. Also, when fighting creatures of ones own size or smaller, being mounted grants a higher ground type of attack bonus. The last two advantages do not require moving. As a character advances, there are opportunities (depending on the campaign setting and DM) to aquire more advanced and useful mounts, including aquatic mounts or flying mounts. In these cases, all of the same skills and feats also apply. This makes the mounted character build viable across almost all levels. After all, who wouldn't get some satisfaction out of playing a barbarian charging through the field on a rhinocerous, or cleric wheeling above the combat on a pegasis?
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 10, 2009 17:59:11 GMT -5
I think the issue for most people is the feat intensive nature of builds that focus on mounted combat. I mean, realistically to take advantage of the full benefits, you need:
Mounted Combat - for using a Ride check to negate a hit once per round Rideby Attack - to move after charge with mount and make full use of the lance tactic Spirited Charge - for more damage potential for the lance or a martial weapon (triple and double, respectively)
The real issue seems to be that if you are not human, and not a fighter, you need to burn your level 1, 3, and 6 feats to be up to power at level 6. Now granted, a human fighter can get all of these feats in at level 1 if they don't take anything else. But if you really want to run a unique and cool concept, like a barbarian on a rhino, you are outta luck until level 6 (granted, getting a rhino before then might be tough).
I think this line of feats might be really handy in E6 though, since you get lots of feats instead of levels. I actually thought about doing a mounted combat druid before I decided on an air-based Wildshaper/Caster.
Sample build on 32 points might run:
Human Fighter 1
STR 16 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 12
Skill points mainly going to Ride, Handle Animal, Intimidate. The rest could be scattered in Jump, Climb, and Swim, with a few in Craft (whatever) for good measure.
Take the 3 good feats (Mounted Combat, Rideby Attack, and either Spirited Charge or Mounted Archery.
I'd be looking to develop along Power Attack tree, Combat Expertise, and other mounted feats. Focus and Specialization are handy, as would be the Archery feats.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 10, 2009 20:24:01 GMT -5
Along the not-entirely-powerful-but-thematically-cool-and-workable builds line would be the sword and board ranger.
My idea, mechanically, is to exploit the TWF style by NOT cranking the DEX of the ranger, instead focusing on the STR, CON, and INT. INT is handy for skills and Expertise, CON for saves and HP, STR for damage output.
If you use the Imp Shield Bash feat, you get to keep your shield bonus to AC when making a shield bash. You are using your light shield as a light weapon in your off hand, so all attacks are at a -2.
Along with an animal companion that can flank or harass, the penalties disappear - though this only occurs after level 4 when you get your companion.
The point of the ranger as opposed to a high DEX fighter is that I am assuming people are not rolling stats, but buying them. I know that some people roll, but I think more and more the point buy is becoming accepted, if not standard, given the equity in power that is created.
If I was playing this guy, I would try to create a feat that worked with the DM to have some kind of status effect on the victim. Maybe something like the weapon style feats from Complete Warrior, but hopefully without as many retarded prereqs.
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Post by grond on Jun 10, 2009 21:19:17 GMT -5
Well, there is the wounding weapon. It takes 18000 gp of treasure, but it cuts down HP rather more quickly than melee attacks alone. As for mounted combat, yes without spirited charge (prerq on that is BAB 4, just FYI) one won't take full advantage of the damage potential, but for a raging barbarian, being able to take cover, which is using the ride skill, not impeded by rage, is a nice little bonus (+4 to AC, +2 to reflex saves against cones and lines). Also, you only need skills to do that. One feat makes up for the defense of the mount (mounted combat). I think its viable without the whole tree. Being able to take cover makes up in one skill check for raging and charging. And besides, there aren't many high level barbarian exclusive feats in the PHB, so you can slowly improve a mounted barb over twenty levels. Also, spellcasters like clerics on horseback can participate in combat, escape overwhelming odds and quickly reach an endangered ally. BTW, I definately like the shield using ranger build, but I would rather do short sword and heavy spiked shield, it leaves me with a d6 for both attacks, and it leaves the shield 4 points harder to disarm and harder to sunder. This way he has a shot at staying armed and armored against a fighter with a heavy flail and improved disarm. Which brings me to the next idea, disarming Everyone thinks a little about it, but there is one really great way to execute it. Combat expertise, improved disarm, combat reflexes and a ranseur. This combination does 3 good things. The 1st is that the ranseur and the disarm feat together give a character 10 point advantage on the opposed roll over anyone who doesn't have either part. The ranseur is a reach weapon, allowing the weilder to disarm same size foes as an AOO, or one size bigger (if they can win the roll) without having to approach. Finally, the part of combat reflexes I often fail to notice is that it allows a flat footed character to take AOOs. This method allows a character to disarm several opponents as the approach, thus keeping himself safe. Alternatively, you could use a heavy flail and gain the same disarm bonuses, + 1d10 damage and a 19-20 threat range
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Post by grond on Jun 10, 2009 22:26:45 GMT -5
The following is in my opinion one of the best exploitations of power attack that I can imagine. It is rather focussed, so it is almost fighter exclusive. Perhaps humans of other class could manage it. Human fighter 8 Feats lvl 1 Dodge, mobility, weapon focus (falchion) lvl 2 combat expertise lvl 3 power attack lvl 4 spring attack lvl 6 weapon specialization (falchion), whirlwind attack lvl 8 improved critical (falchion)
32 point stats
Str 15 (+1 here at 8) Dex 16 Con 16 (+1 here at lvl 4) Int 13 Wis 11 Cha 10
This character thrives on being in the crowd. He fights defensively and uses expertise to attack and then move toward the middle, keeping a good AC (at lvl 8, no magic, AC 24, 25 w/ dodge) at the expense of easily hitting. Also he can use spring attack to aid in positioning. When finally surrounded, he uses a full round action, with a - 3 penalty for power attack to attack all threatened opponents with a +9 bonus to hit (doesn't sound like much) and a 15-20 crit range. If a critical is rolled and confirmed (30% chance each round) it is confirmed against all opponents. The - 3 penalty yields a +12 damage bonus (for a total of 4d4 +22 on a crit). 1 in, 4 out 30% of the time. I think that's a very good trade off. On regular hits, with that penalty he gets a +11 damage bonus. Keep in mind, this is without magic weapons (using masterwork weapon to determine attack bonus and chain shirt for AC figures). Now, I think that this build benefits greatly from cross-classing tumble up to 5 ranks, improving the bonus granted by fighting defensively. Also, I erred on the side of caution by giving him a high constitution to help with being so far in thick of things, but one could just as easily leave him at 12 con and dump wisdom and charisma completely in favor of a higher Str which will yeild a better attack and damage bonus, albeit at risk of being short on HP, however high dex is important because he can't use a shield. This build, spanned across 20 levels of human barbarian would make for a great crowd clearer, assuming one withheld on rage until completely surrounded (I checked, it does fit in 20 levels of barbarian, if human). The part about this that makes for so practical a fighter is that he has the option to do all of his attacking at his highest attack bonus when fighting more than 1 enemy, and with such a higher threat range there is a good chance to do a lot of critical damage in one round. I think I'll nickname him human fireball.
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Post by grond on Jun 10, 2009 22:48:00 GMT -5
OK, here is the exact opposite fighter. Using these base ability scores
Str 14 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 9
This one two weapon fights using light picks. I know that only deal 1d4 each, but at high levels (14 lets say) they do at least 1d4+6 (+5 on off hand weapon) with a x4 critical and 6 opportunities per round to score a critical hit. At high levels, this character should invest in an energy burst ability on each weapon, offering 3d10 more damage (36000 gp in treasure). Obviously, this build goes after the complete two weapon fighting tree, the complete weapon focus tree and improved critical. Everything else is open to whatever is helpful.
Completely seperate from Mr Icepick up there, a handy little feat augmentation for any class that can afford the feats (usually fighters) is quick draw, improved unarmed strike, and stunning fist. This allows the character the potential to disable an opponent with the first attack in a round, giving all of your subsequent attacks a better shot at hitting. Just 3 feats if your Paladin can spare them. Imagine stunning and smiting in the same hit. Any character with this feat set up would be very helpful to a rogue, being able to leave an enemy open for sneak attack without needing to manuever for flanking. Dmitri's sword and board ranger (who only needs one feat to function) actually could afford to employ these feats, giving the status effect he was looking for, and if he used a ki focus weapon (+1 equivalent weapon ability) he would be able to use his sword or shield to deliver the stunning attack.
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Post by Tomas on Jun 11, 2009 7:27:43 GMT -5
For Mounted Combat to be of any real use the world would have to support it. The DM would have to let the player know up front that the game would be mostly outdoors and far ranging.
Horses and dungeons don't mix mostly because horses are open land creatures and would be difficult to drag through a dungeon. Also they can't go down stairs.
Tom
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 11, 2009 13:10:36 GMT -5
The issue with the heavy shield is the extra penalty to hit for both weapons - it would be like dual wielding longswords, so I think it drops to -4/-4, something I have never been comfortable with doing. Outside of core their is a feat for "oversized TWFing" but that is outside of core and thus outside this thread.
The reason I have always shied away from Mounts is not the ride check, but the AoE attack. If the horse fails the save on a fireball, you can easily end up on your back. But I like the concept tremendously. I think the best riding characters (or at least easiest to use) would be a Small druid on its companion (since companions get evasion and imp evasion eventually), and the HD increase. Of course, after a while, Wildshape would eclipse the riding idea in terms of damage output and utility, but it would still be pretty bad ass and worth looking at. A gnome on a dire badger is a funny concept, but suprisingly workable.
Tom has a point, too - the stairs would be brutal for a horse or pony.
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Post by grond on Jun 11, 2009 14:18:24 GMT -5
For mounts, a halfling on a riding dog would work well. However, neither gets the same attack bonus that medium mounted creatures get against other medium mounted creatures. Also, a trained animal may be able to be lead through a dungeon, and provided that the stairs were wide enough (and they would be if any large creature was present) the horse could be able to be coaxed down sideways, with some gentle handling. I think you're right that it wouldn't be comfortable or convenient, but I think it could prove invaluable in many circumstances. Horses, for example, have the scent ability. Using handle animal, one could train a war horse to locate things by scent. I think there was some use of blood mares in real world history for this reason. All the same, it would be much more usable if the DMs world was mount friendly. For 2 weapon fighting, I proposed using a short sword and a heavy shield, so the shield would be the primary weapon. If the shield has spikes, that lets you attack using 2 d6 weapons. Also, a heavy wooden shield later made into a bashing shield (magical ability) is a d8 weapon. I think this approach keeps a better damage balance throughout the progression.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 11, 2009 16:53:25 GMT -5
Makes sense mechanically, but is kind of weird in its look and concept (the main hand shield and off hand sword). I'd still use the other combo, something like a longsword or battle axe and light shield, since the d8 and d4 mathematically work out the same as a two d6's. Even though TWF mechanically is weaker than a 2 hander, I like the flavor, especially of a shield basher. I also like the fighting style feat idea a little better than stunning fist, as it stays away from the wuxia thing of "ki focus" weapons and the like. For monks it seems to make sense, not so much for a fighter I'd make in concept.
For the feat, I was thinking something like this...
Blade and Board Style (tactical feat)
Prereqs: TWF, Imp TWF, Imp Shield Bash, Weapon Focus (type of shield), Weapon Focus (type of blade), BAB +6
You are adept at intermingling strikes with your blade and your shield. You have access to the following maneuvers during combat.
Blinding Bash: You attack with your shield first, then follow up with your blade. Doing this requires a full attack action with both weapons. If the shield strike hits, the target makes a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 level + STR mod). If the target fails, it is blinded for one round as blood drips in its eyes and it sees stars. This only works once per encounter on a given opponent.
Defensive Blade: You carefully use your blade as well as your shield to deflect blows. When fighting defensively, taking total defense, or using Combat Expertise, increase your bonus by +2.
Hampering Strike: You throw your shield high, and slash low, trying to hinder the enemies movement and ability to defend himself. Make an attack with your shield and sword. If both hit, the victim must make a Reflex save (DC = 10 + 1/2 level + STR, DEX, or INT mod). On a failure, the enemy's movement speed is halved for 1d3 rounds, the victim loses its DEX bonus to AC for the same time, and is considered flat-footed.
Anyway, I like it, though input is always welcome.
I have a question, though, something that has bothered me for a while now. Can you Combat Expertise and Power Attack at the same time? It doesn't make sense to me in a reality kind of way, but I can't find where you can't do it mechanically.
PS - I realize the feat is not core, so sorry to include it here. It can be moved if anyone has the ability to do so.
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Post by grond on Jun 11, 2009 19:06:08 GMT -5
Well, the way I think of the stunning fist is like a sucker punch, that's why quick draw is in that combo. Sucker punch, quick draw, bash, slice, bash. Personally, I think it is a little fighter appropriate as it is a fighter bonus feat option, albeit an unpopular one. The ki focus is just the next augmentation in my mind, the same way a mighty cleaving weapon steps up a cleave character's game and a keen scimitar might be used to buff up a ranger, or a flaming mace for a pelor cleric. For the heavy shield, I'm picturing a style that leads with the shield and uses a short sword for quick nasty jabs. And one more tiny hole to poke at the light shield, with 1d3 (1d4 spiked) and half strength bonus, you'll never overcome DR.
What if you made a 2 weapon fighting character that used a spiked shield and armor spikes for his off weapon? What would that look like?
I'm wondering, while we discuss unused and under used feats and abilities, does anyone have any experience using bullrush to any actual gain? I've considered it and even tried it with a character, but I never made an impact with it.
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Post by grond on Jun 15, 2009 17:48:58 GMT -5
For the combat expertise and power attack together, I think it does make sense mechanically if you rethink the way power attack looks. Often, power attack is thought of as using ones strength to swing and (hopefully) hit harder, with the risk of not hitting at all. I'd like to point out that the stat drawn from to determine this bonus is not the strength bonus, it is the base attack bonus. If power attack were purely a matter of brute force, then it would make more sense to limit the bonuses and penalties base on the character's strength bonus. My opinion is that power attack is taking advantage of having enough strength to comfortably carry the weapon being used, but the way it generates more force is with technique. Power attack, IMHO (leet speak makes my blood crawl in disgust), makes use of wrist, elbow and shoulder snaps as well as body pivoting to increase the force of the attack, but at the cost versitility (one can only strike so many ways and still maximize applied force). The loss of attacking options (no more fast strike to the elbow or hip region for example) is where the loss of attack bonus comes in. As for meshing it with expertise, I've been taking expertise to be a matter of footwork as much as parrying, a conservative, close footed stance allows a combatant to more quickly move themselves from harms way, but, being conservative, it also prevents the fighter from being able to lean in well on his attacks, effectively keeping himself out of harms way while also giving the defender more leniencey to defend themselves. I see no reason that a well trained and skilled fighter could not do both things at once.
Now for another handy little thing that gets over looked quite often I think (could be wrong, maybe everyone uses it): The Fighting Net. The net is an exotic weapon, making it perhaps a little undesirable for use, as it would require a feat to be able to use it. However, the fighting net is used with a ranged touch attack that immediately entangles the enemy, inflict some rather serious penalties, including the loss of a dexterity bonus. The net is complicated to use repeatedly, but in a one shot, against many low CR creatures, it is almost unescapable. It requires a DC 20 escape artist check, which few classes have as a class skill, and fewer monsters, or a DC 25 strength check, which a monster or character would need a 20 strength to achieve on a natural 20 die roll. Creatures within a net are slowed down to half movement and suffer a -4 penalty on attack rolls. All around, the net is nearly as good as a couple of negative levels. Certainly, it is at least worth 20 gp for its function and reusability.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 15, 2009 19:45:30 GMT -5
I saw your net fighter, and laughed cause that's what I was gonna eventually go for with Kamden - net and trident. Just a cool visual and should be effective too. I like it a lot because it takes something that no one else usually does and makes it work.
I still am not convinced on the Expertise and Power Attack thing, especially with the 2 hander. But I don't know, and if you do it too much, you don't hit at all and all is for naught.
I do like the polearms too. The biggest issue is attacking someone next to you. Is there a CORE way to get around this? I know there is a feat for it in Complete Warrior, but we are working on core here, and I refuse to use a spiked chain. Dunadaine has not really been ridiculous with it, but it can get so - finessable and power attackable at the same time... phew.
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Post by grond on Jun 15, 2009 20:56:15 GMT -5
For power attack, we'll have to agree to disagree, until I complete a 5 year training program and summarily whoop you in real life using the principals I described above! Or I could just DM my way, and you yours.
As for pole arm solutions, here are the best I can come up with: Begin by using the ready action to ready an attack. You may ready a shift along with any other action, so long as you did not move during your normal turn or the readied action itself. In this way, you are able to take your readied attack, move backward forcing your opponent to either follow, provoking an AOO, or remain standing in the threatened zone. Ideally, you are using the longspear for this, as you can set against a charge. If the foe is charging, you deal double damage with the readied attack, and normal with the AOO. If they do not charge, you may still use the readied attack (normal damage) and they will be unable to attack you after the shift, having to use more than one move action just to get to you. It isn't perfect, but it'll work around half or mor of the time, and it will work against large foes as well, since you complete the shift action when they enter you threatening reach. With combat reflexes, you could move forward, ready a second move action to move to the side after attacking an enemy that left a threatened square in front of you, moving 10 ft. This way, an approaching foe never quite gets close enough to attack you, and a charging foe provokes one attack of opportunity if they stop, 3 attacks of opportunity if they decide to continue the charge, and either way they fail to hit or even approach your polearm fighter. Also, you could consider using the guisarme and a tripping build with the same principals. That approach isn't as concerned with the starting distances, but it does require a successful trip, or it is nearly useless. Then there is the Ranseur and the disarming build. The bonuses that can be reached with a ranseur could take a longsword out of a giant's hand, at such a time as a giant is an appropriate CR. Finally, equip spiked gauntlets, use one hand to hold, not weild, the polearm and the other to attack the adjacent foe, or any standard melee weapon and quick draw. Generally, the point with the polearm is to try to make use of the ready action and attacks of opportunity to prevent the enemy from closing with you. I would also like to point out that all of the above outlined tactics are almost not feat dependant and can be used by any class, but particularly Barbarians, Paladins, and for clerics and rogues with the longspear (sorcerors too, except they have so low of an attack bonus that they would need to already have dropped half a dozen buffs on themselves for it to work)
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