Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 12, 2009 21:24:12 GMT -5
Mechanically, the fighter level gives a +2 bump to Fort saves, BAB, all martial weapons, all armor and shields, and a fighter feat. I was figuring on wearing a mithral breastplate at higher levels, and need the prof for it. Likewise, if not using a whip, a greatsword or another 2 hander, but with reach, is handy. Also the feat helps you to get into the action a little quicker with your main tactic, disarm or trip. Actually thought of giving more fighter levels, but quickly dropped that since they give little to no actual benefit. This bard is not suppose to be a major caster, but is instead a buffer for himself and others, and more of a casual caster. If he is the only arcane caster in the group, you are basically screwed...
But he works as a 20 level bard just fine, no reason not to go that way, just stay in a mithral chain shirt and use a rapier when you don't need to whip it... whip it good.
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Post by grond on Aug 13, 2009 6:11:47 GMT -5
I guess that comes back to whether you need the proficiency for medium armor in order wear medium type armor made of mithral (which counts as light). I think we've been house ruling that you need the proficiency for it original weight, but the actual wording includes "for the purposes of movement speed and proficiency" (paraphrased) doesn't it? My DMG is in my car or I'd look it up. If we have used it as a house rule, it is a good one.
How important are the bard songs for mister whip it? If you're already adding a fighter level, and he isn't song dependent, wouldn't Eldritch Knight make a little sense, one more feat, better BAB?
Any time trip comes up, I always have to fall back on the point that all of the trip modifiers are not level dependent and therefore don't grow. It is rather difficult to get enough modifiers with tripping to be reasonably sure of success, and failure leaves you vulnerable to either turnabout or voluntary disarming. That said, I would love to see a good tripping build, since it allows a combatant to deal with a significantly higher level opponent with some safety. That is one of the features of the "giant" sorcerer that I'm almost eager to try to play out.
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Post by grond on Aug 16, 2009 15:10:29 GMT -5
I know we seem to mostly be using this thread to post character builds, but I'd like to take a post to bring up another aspect of core mechanics and how it can relate to strategy; the ready action. A thing occurred to me recently that a player may ready any action that is not more than a standard action, and may also ready a 5ft step along with it. The ready action is resolved when the condition for which it was readied occurs, interrupting any other current actions. I'm sure none of that was groundbreaking. This next part is what I think has a major impact on combat strategy. By relying on the ready action, instead of taking actions during your own round, it is possible in many cases to control the battle field without any special abilities, feats, spells or otherwise, A level 1 character of any class can employ this strategy. The first step is to determine the distance between your character and the foe, and make an educated guess at said foe's movement speed. During the first round, use a move action to place yourself at the furthest distance that foe can charge, and then use your standard action to take a ready action. The ready action is to move back 5 or 10 ft when the enemy gets within 15ft of you. What this does is allows you to attack the enemy at a disadvantaged AC, either with a charge of your own if you only make one attack per round (then you readied to step back 10ft) or with a full attack if you get more than 1 per round. In other words, you enjoy the drawback that your enemy accepts by charging, while denying him the benefit. The downside is that you wind up stuck in initiative order right next to that foe. Another worthwhile use of this opening, especially for a low level wizard, would be to cast shocking grasp or searing ray at this opponent, while their AC is lower. For a more specific look, a character with a long spear, probably a combat class, but a sorcerer, cleric or druid would work, could use a version of the above tactic to do considerable damage to an enemy while they have a lowered AC. Instead of moving, the character uses a ready action, including a 5ft step backward, to set against a charge. The backward step is taken after the attack. This means that if the enemy was charging his full distance (not very likely, since you can't do anything to control that in this case) he takes an attack for double damage, and doesn't get to return one. If he had a little movement to spare and takes that movement, he receives one attack for double damage and one for normal, while only getting one attack in return. The attack of opportunity could be taken to disarm the charging enemy, instead, leaving them with no attack. Just a little combat strategy I cooked up to help poor combat characters function a little better with a strategic mind.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 17, 2009 8:12:46 GMT -5
COuld you set this action to actually move in the middle of the enemies action though? It would seem to me taht you could probably move before his move (like seeing him start to move and reacting, but before he reached you) or that you could move after his move) but not in the middle of his turn without an immediate action.
Or am I misreading the relevant parts of the PHB?
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Post by grond on Aug 17, 2009 15:39:33 GMT -5
Well, extrapolating from the ready action used to set a weapon, you can interrupt the middle of an opponent's move. A charging foe would normally move 5ft further during the move part of his action than he does before an attack readied against him with a reach weapon is made. He completes his movement after the attack as normal, as long as he still can. Readying an attack by setting a weapon against a charge also doesn't deny you the readied attack if the foe moves against you but does not charge (you just miss out on double damage). Anyway, the point is that these are examples of standard actions that interrupt the movement of another when used as readied actions. A move action takes less "time" so should be usable in the same manner. Readied actions seem to work a lot like attacks of opportunity, except that you declare them in advance (out of character) and you define your own reasonable conditions to activate. You don''t need the an immediate action because you are already committing the time element of the movement during your turn. Remember that each round is supposed to be the same 6 seconds for everyone at the same time, some just take priority over others because they are more on the ball. Readying an action is deciding what you will do and also timing it to exact conditions. Besides, if your readied action is triggered by someone lower in the initiative count than you, you already are thinking faster than they are and thus take priority. It is like the real life equivalent of timing a counter-attack or deliberate dodge in boxing or fencing. You've thought about and committed to the action and are merely awaiting the perfect instant to execute. I'm wondering if what I types makes any sense to anyone other than me.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 17, 2009 16:47:35 GMT -5
Makes sense to me - and actually readying an action to counterspell is probably the best of example of why my thinking was wrong.
What I am not getting is how it actually does anything better than setting a weapon against a charge. For example...
2 characters, character A wins Init with a 15 and character B is second with a 10.
1. "A" readies an action to set weapon for a charge and then take a 5 ft step away. 2. "B" charges 3. "A" makes the AoO (assuming it is a longspear - if not, skip to step 4) 4. "A" makes his readied attack 5. "A" takes his 5 foot step away 6. "B" completes the charge and wails away on him anyway
How is the 5 ft step helping you? Maybe I am missing this... kinda tired from the weekend, making this a distinct possibility.
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Post by grond on Aug 17, 2009 19:00:44 GMT -5
In your tiredness, you did miss an important detail, the readied attack and the 5ft step happen before the attack of opportunity, otherwise there would be 2 attacks of opportunity, one before and one after. I wish it could work that way (three attacks in one standard action) but it cannot, since all your readied actions must happen in a row (not split up with separate conditions). It potentially exhausts more of the enemy's movement, and could draw them into an attack of opportunity from an ally who was adjacent to the character in question's starting square (I know, where did this ally come from?). The charger wouldn't have provoked from that ally the way the fight was laid out when he decided to charge, and he was willing to risk the hit from your character, especially if your character was a sorcerer or cleric. Remember, I said this is a useful tactic at low levels because of the fact that it requires no feats or special class abilities. Also, if you figure in that above mentioned ally, lets say that he is a fighter with a heavy flail. Now he can attempt to disarm the charger, if the charger did provoke the attack of opportunity, and leave him impotent in the middle of melee. It may seem that this is a pretty specific, circumstantial tactic, but I think if you look at how basic the requirements are, and how many options the ready action leaves you with, I think it could be used to redefine general tactics all of the way down to determining marching order.
Now to a more specific character build with this in mind. As long as we assume that any free actions that could be reasonably taken (dropping a weapon, drawing one with quick draw, etc.) can be readied, let us use the glaive and the halberd. Our character is probably a fighter. He readies an action to drop the glaive, draw the halberd (both are free) and set against the charge (a standard action). He uses his move action to make sure the distance between himself and his enemy is enough to cause them to charge. In this way, he gets to take an attack of opportunity with a d10 weapon, and deal double damage with another d10 weapon. Or he could use a heavy flail and his readied action would be to disarm or trip the charging foe, which might amount to a greater advantage, either way. Any thoughts on that idea in terms of feasibility? Too powerful? Too pointless? Am I trying to cram too much in my 1 gallon hat here?
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 17, 2009 21:56:23 GMT -5
Ah... now I get it. My only real questions would be about dropping the glaive and drawing the halberd - from what place do you draw it? I can see sticking it in the ground, but a holster is just too much for me to fathom.
Anway though, I do like the idea a lot - you know how I feel about fighters in general not getting enough love, so I like whatever we can come up with to beef em up a bit. I like t his, though I'd warn you about enemy casters being the bane of this guy and his party. Example...
4 member party, standard fighter, rogue, cleric, wizzy thing, all say level 3.
Enemy mob of say 6 kobolds, 4 of which are level 1 warriors (CR 1/2), 2 of which are level 1 sorcerers (CR 1). According to the SRD's Encounter Calculater, this is EL 4, not a ridiculous thing by any stretch for the party, especially at the beginning of the day.
Well, the cleric will likely throw out a buff in round one. Rogue either goes archer, or tries to position for a flank. Wizzy either buffs, debuffs, controls, or direct damages (lots o options). Suppose wizzy and rogue take one fighter down. Now there are three. If fighter doesnt engage directly, that is three kobolds bum rushing the party, 1 of which is likely enlarged by the sorc, and the fighter is standing in a pool of grease, or enfeebled. Either way, a proactive approach is needed or the wizzy and rogue are toast.
Now, this changes drastically if we add a second more proactive fighter or barbarian or something, but then the melee centers on him and the offensive fighter is likely getting beaten while the defensive fighter is sitting on his haunches.
So as long as the party is fully cognizant of the fighters tactics and as long as they are down with it and have ways to cope with creative enemies, I think it might work fairly well.
Nicely done, Grond.
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Post by grond on Aug 18, 2009 16:43:23 GMT -5
The counter to your encounter is 4 orc barbarians. These guys have scimitars and a good strength score, also a CR 4 encounter, I'm pretty sure. All they will do is bum rush and hack and slash. With rage on their sides, and 2 handing the scimitar, a crit could easily threaten to kill a non fighter/barb level 2 or 3. However, 1 good hit kills any of them. If our fighter is on point and uses the above described tactic, without wasting any spells, there is a good chance that round one is 2 enemies down. Combat reflexes, or cleave would really rule this encounter, but with those tactics they are unnecessary. Also, one level 4 orc barbarian would be well crippled by that glaive halberd technique. The Halberd is kept on a sort shoulder strap or bandolier
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Post by grond on Aug 18, 2009 19:53:04 GMT -5
As far as the barbarian as an ally goes, the other thing that his speed allows him to do is move around the outside of the main combat and then attack from behind. Isn't it you, Dmitri, who is always pointing out the folly of charging headlong into a fight without any real thought to strategy? I think I'm beginning to learn from that. The barbarian could charge right into the enemy melee, but then if the fighter is in any decent armor, he moves 20 while the Barb moves 40, so it will take at least 2 rounds for the higher AC meat tank to get in there and absorb some of the damage. Meanwhile, the barbarian might be getting shredded, either by a group of small enemies, or by something more dangerous like a hydra. If the barbarian instead moves around the outside edge, making the main group a closer and more inviting target, then charges in, raging and power attacking, and hopefully flanking, depending on the foe, he does more good then just being a bloody wound in desperate need of healing at the end of the fight. What I guess I'm saying is that if you have party that is kill competitive, then yes the barbarian will be doing all of the work, while the reactive/defensive fighter will never break a sweat unless it is a hot day. However, since the fighter has access to the weapons and feats, why not take full advantage of them? It never hurts to be able to get the drop on a hill giant that decides to charge you down. The first damage it takes is double (use power attack 2, str 14, you get a total damage bonus of 14 after doubling, with no weapon specific feats). Then let the barbarian move in from the side to wail on him while the rogue rolls forward to the other side to sneak attack. By by hill giant (I know it isn't that easy, but it is easier my way than with a whole mess of attacks of opportunity). My way prevents ambushes, and unless there is a serious ranged attack threat, wins first blood for the protagonists, which is not the usual way. Imagine if your Kobald troop was arranged on the other side of a simple pit trap, and with only one sorcerer. Moving at them first could be death. Alternative? Use the total defense action with half of the party providing cover for the others, long spear wielders stand back and set against a charge. Meanwhile (if we have a fifth in this party) the archer "encourages" the Kobalds to charge (they move 20, they'd almost have to charge to close any decent starting distance) I can definitely see the case for the way you (Dmitri) have analyzed the combat, since that is usually how it plays out for us. The thing I'm driving at is that I think we do a poor job of using all of the tactics available and thus suffer in most combats we've gamed through.
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Post by Tomas on Aug 19, 2009 10:17:12 GMT -5
Just some thoughts to add.
A party really should have a good selection of tactics to cover their bases. Having some fighter centric ones make a lot of sense and it makes the fighter player happier to do more than lose hp for the party.
In the last case of the barbarian and the fighter. The barbarian MUST have ranged weapons since he will not always be able to use his movement to advantage. Really every character, with enough strength to afford the weight, should have a ranged option.
A good use of a rogue could be for the rogue to hide and the party retreat. This puts the rogue in a good flank position, allows the fighter to prepare for a charge and a round for the casters to buff if needed. Retreating might also encourage a charge, as the party might seem weak.
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Post by Tomas on Aug 19, 2009 10:22:32 GMT -5
Oh another thought.
Caltrops.
Does the action of taking damage and halving your moment speed end a charge?
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 19, 2009 10:57:56 GMT -5
Well , I say yes without looking at my book for confirmation - cant charge over rough terrain, rough terrain halves movement speed IIRC, so caltrops are likely a kind of rough terrain. I think that is why Valel in LGG5 was laying them out in the other corridor to stop charging ogres.
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Post by grond on Aug 19, 2009 16:18:51 GMT -5
Caltrops specifically (I think) have the results of "cannot run or charge" in the description of their consequences. Normally damage doesn't end a charge, but the caltrops I'm sure must. The main point wasn't to prevent the charge, but to severely punish it. However, caltrops are an excellent piece of gear to contribute to crowd control, especially if you manage a range weapon heavy part. I like them much.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Aug 20, 2009 17:04:46 GMT -5
Another sample build, this time using two of my least favorite classes by themselves - paladin and sorcerer (sorry Tomas, not a big sorcerer fan).
The Sorcadin (human paladin 2/sorcerer 8/eldritch knight 10 or paladin 2/fighter 2/sorcerer 6/eldritch knight 10)
First the mechanics...
The progression, I think, should go:
p1-2/s1-6/ek1-10/s7-8 or p1-2/s1-6/ek1-10/f1-2
If you go for 8 total levels of sorc, you end up with 8 levels of spells, so you will have significant flexibility in terms of self and group buffing (which is what I'd be doing), crowd control, utility, debuffing, etc. You could even use direct damage to soften the enemy up a bit before wading into melee. Caster level ends up at 17, and if you pull in Practiced Caster from noncore material you end with CL at 20. Best of all, you are fully playable across all levels - the 2 levels of pally at the beginning mean that you can use armor and weapons initially, get CHA to saves (which should be high to make use of spells fully), and when you go sorc you will take stuff like enlarge person, haste, fly, invis or greater, mirror image, displacement, etc. to make you more effective in combat. Good feats include Extend Spell, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, the Spring Attack line, Expertise, etc. Your final BAB is 16 for 4 attacks/round, and doesnt suffer too much through the mid levels - at level 8 you have a BAB of +5. Skills are weak though, so careful with this. You also need mage armor desperately and shield for AC or you will get hit with every enemy blow.
If you choose to go with the 2 fighter levels, you only get 7th level spells, but get 2 extra feats - the fighter levels can be tossed in at any point after the 2 pally levels, though I'd get to at least sorc 3 before leaving sorc again. This nets you a BAB of 17, and better fort saves but weaker will saves, but with CHA to saves it isn't that big a deal I think. I'd rather have 8th level spells than an extra +1 BAB, but that is just me.
From a flavor standpoint, I like it because I can see a paladin discovering his heritage and spell casting ability, and leaving the fold - especially if the heritage is fiendish, and he ends up dealing with evil or chaotic longings and feelings. You could really play this guy up as the anti-hero if you wanted, and RP some cool stuff out with it.
EDIT: Taking out the bard recommendation for alignment reasons...
As far as specific feats, here is a brief build possibility. Comments?
1: Power Attack - probably using a two hander, preferably one with reach 1HB: Combat Reflexes - see above point 3: Eschew Materials - thematic and useful when you have your hands full 6: Extend Spell - too make your buffs last longer 9: Improved Sunder - go big with enlarge person, bust up some baddie weapons 12: Skill Focus (Concentration) - cause you need to be able to cast in melee 15: Combat Casting - same as above 18: Weapon Focus - every bit of attack bonus helps you out in this build
I feel like I can do better with feats - would love to get Lightening Reflexes and Iron Will in this build. Would take Expertise, but the last thing you have to burn is stat points on pimping your INT.
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