Respectful Questions

[Dmitri]

Greetings! I simply have a few question, that I hoped someone could help answer for me here in the Pagan area of the forums. I will try to be as respectful as possible, and please understand that I only ask questions like this so that I can better understand diverse viewpoints, and see from a perspective that I may not previously have experienced. So if I offend in anyway, please just let me know, so I can try to make it right and so I do not continue in ignorance.

1. I see a lot of reference to the idea of relativity in the links the Lady Winter Wolf posted to topics of witchcraft and Wicca. My question in this regard is fairly simple - how do practitioners deal with the inherent contradictions that differing views offer? For example, differing creation stories, etc. without coming into conflict, saying that one is right and the other wrong. It seems to me that if one pantheon created the universe, then another could not have. If this logic is allowed, then how could one say taht another belief system is as valid as their own?

2. What ancient texts are the modern witches drawing their rebirth of tradition from? For example, after spending several years studying Arthurian legend, one of the core rules that you learn is simple - the Bretons had no written language other than ogham, so all textual examples of this Celtic tradition are suspect as they would have been written down possibly thousands of years after the initial development of the stories and mythology.

3. How are some of the old rights practiced in a modern world? For example, my understanding of the worship of Odin is that he required human sacrifice (hence the "gallows god" title). If that is Odin's desire, how can he be worshipped in a world were that is no longer practiced?

4. Not so much a question as a clarification. The reason that Wicca and withcraft are typically lumped under "Satanism" is that most Christians associate Cerunnos with Lucifer or Satan, whatever nomenclature you prefer. For those practices that venerate the Horned One, it is seen as a de facto veneration of the Devil, regardless of intent. While I understand that this may be offensive to those that worship this way, it is at least an explanation of the reasoning behind the classification.

Anyway, I hope I have not been offensive to anyone, but it is hard sometimes to get information on these topics, especially off of the internet, which is a notoriosly unreliable outlet for accurate information. Thanks again for the help!

Dmitri

[MjolnirH]

dmitri said:

how do practitioners deal with the inherent contradictions that differing views offer?

We simply accept that others have different beliefs.

dmitri said:

What ancient texts are the modern witches drawing their rebirth of tradition from?

Well that depends upon which religion your talking about, there are a small number of religions that call their practitioners witches. Some have some old dusty scroll from which they derive some of their rituals from, most of it is just a traditional way of life that has been handed down for centuries just having been documented within the last 60 years. for the Asatru religion (the religion of the ancient vikings) the Eddas and the heroic sagas are our inspiration.

dmitri said:

How are some of the old rights practiced in a modern world? For example, my understanding of the worship of Odin is that he required human sacrifice

Well I don't really recall anything I've read anywhere saying that Odin requires Human Sacrifice. however, if an old ritual requires a sacrifice of some sort let us say a bull for instance and some mead. Well the All-Father will just have to get by on some store bought steak and mead. it is really the effort that the gods appreciate anyway.

that last on I'll leave for LWW, she's done more extensive research on these subjects than I have. DaffyD is also very knowledgeable in the aspects of paganism

[Lady Winter Wolf]

dmitri said:

1. I see a lot of reference to the idea of relativity in the links the Lady Winter Wolf posted to topics of witchcraft and Wicca. My question in this regard is fairly simple - how do practitioners deal with the inherent contradictions that differing views offer? For example, differing creation stories, etc. without coming into conflict, saying that one is right and the other wrong. It seems to me that if one pantheon created the universe, then another could not have. If this logic is allowed, then how could one say taht another belief system is as valid as their own?

The majority do, just for the simple reasons of individuality and respect. Those who insist that another belief system is "wrong", are most probably not 100% comfortable with their own beliefs, or are fanatical about their own belief system. If they somehow get others to join their path, then they justify the idea that their belief system is the "one true path".

dmitri said:

2. What ancient texts are the modern witches drawing their rebirth of tradition from? For example, after spending several years studying Arthurian legend, one of the core rules that you learn is simple - the Bretons had no written language other than ogham, so all textual examples of this Celtic tradition are suspect as they would have been written down possibly thousands of years after the initial development of the stories and mythology.

The Celts passed on their information via word of mouth through bards. Eventually, the conquering Romans did write down some of what they learned of the Celts.

The Ancient Greeks were known for their academic ways, and there are many texts detailing every aspect of their society; including the "Mystery Cults" which involved magick.

As MH stated, eventually word of mouth finally became written word; and many a witch has a Book of Shadows (BoS) which may have been passed down throughout the generations.

dmitri said:

3. How are some of the old rights practiced in a modern world? For example, my understanding of the worship of Odin is that he required human sacrifice (hence the "gallows god" title). If that is Odin's desire, how can he be worshipped in a world were that is no longer practiced?

Some of the old rites cannot be practiced as they were in olden times; MH's example of the bull is from a ritual for Zeus. No way can you slit the throat of a bull in your living room, but substituting roast beef is acceptable.

The deities accept the changes of time; all they cherish from us is our remembering them, and our respect.

dmitri said:

4. Not so much a question as a clarification. The reason that Wicca and withcraft are typically lumped under "Satanism" is that most Christians associate Cerunnos with Lucifer or Satan, whatever nomenclature you prefer. For those practices that venerate the Horned One, it is seen as a de facto veneration of the Devil, regardless of intent. While I understand that this may be offensive to those that worship this way, it is at least an explanation of the reasoning behind the classification.

Clarification are in order here:

Wicca does not necessarily involve the practice of witchcraft. Not all Wiccans are Witches; not all Witches are Wiccan. The terms Wicca and Witch do not mean the same thing, and are not interchangeable. I don't give a rat's ass what some of those New Age books and authors say; they need a better education obviously. Wicca was "invented" by Gerald Gardner in the 1950's and is a combination of various practices from different paths, plus a lot of his own kinky bits. Witches have been around since ancient times.

Cerunnos is a Celtic deity. I mention this, since you said that Wicca was associated with Witchcraft, and, typically, the God figure of Wicca is just called "The Horned One".

Basically, the horned, red colored, covered in flames concept of the devil was conceived in the Middle Ages. The Roman Catholic church needed to have a more strict control over the populace. What better way than to threaten them with a hell ruled over by this horrid creature, and to suffer for eternity in fiery flames.

Essentially, many of the thousands of people who were killed for being witches was due to greed and jealousy. Neighbors wanting the land of their neighbors; officials wanting the wealth of others to increase their own, and the typical attractive woman getting more than her share of attention from the males. What better way to get rid of a rival than to cry "Witch!!!"?


Hope this answered some of your questions dmitri.

[grond]

Gallows God. . . Not being much of a theologist I wouldn't be able to site a resource, but I have heard that nickname for Odin, meaning no insult by this, some other similarly related deity. Could just be my mind playing a trick though.
Say, all of you seem to be better with this terminology than I am. What exactly is agnosticism? I ask because recently I get asked what sort of religion I follow and I've been looking for a good way to answer that one.

[pigdish]

This site has some information on Agnosticism.

www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

Odin
Odin has many names: the All-Father, the Gallows-God, One-Eye, etc. In Norse mythology, he is the chief god, father of Thor and blood-brother to Loki. Thor can be classified as a sky-god, although one important myth recounts the tale of how he sacrificed an eye and hung himself by a spear from the world-tree Yggdrasil for nine days and nights in order to gain wisdom, which gives him at least a superficial tie to the dying and resurrected earth god. Odin frequently travels in disguise, and, like most of the Norse gods, is rather fickle. More than anything else, Odin fears Ragnarok, the prophesied doomsday battle in which the gods and giants will slaughter one another, destroying the world in the process.

[Antioch]

I think the indigenous populations of the world would disagree with your assessment that oral traditions cannot be passed down through generations and only written ones can. I know for a fact that if you repeditively go over oral stories and hold a high standard of excellance (the natives revered these stories of their past heritage), that you can pass it down over hundreds of years intact orally. The Pennsylvania Freemasons are a good example, we have maintained a strict oral tradition (none of our degree work is written anywhere) for almost 300 years now. It is painstaking to keep it exact, but we do it. And so did the native americans.

Oral tradition must be good, weren't the books of the bible written hundreds of years after Christ's death? From oral tradition and letters the disciples wrote. That was my understanding. I'm not a religious scholar though, so don't flail me if I'm incorrect.

Antioch

[pigdish]

Although information can be passed down orally I believe that the information is altered, if ever so slightly, by the individual either consciously or subconsciously. The more people you add to the mix and the more time passes the more the initial data will be corrupted. Also, oral information requires the person pass down the infornation that was presented to him not necessarily the accuracy of the information. In fact there is really no way to truly and objectively validate the information being passed down from the initial message because the only people that can validate the information are the ones that passed it in the first place.

The children's game of Operator (not sure if that is what it is called in the US) illustrates that oral means of information transfer is flawed and is unreliable for accuracy. It may serve a function for general concepts but for detailed information I would assert that it is statistically improbable for something to not change over several decades or centuries.

This is not to say that written word is infallible. In fact it is known for early scribes to change words, punctuation, grammer, spelling, etc when they were transcribing texts. Not until the printing press did we really have uniformity of the written/printed word. They even changed stuff that they didn't like or inserted stuff that they felt needed to be in the books.

The books of the bible were indeed written hundreds of years after Christ's death and even after they were written they have been modified by so many people the original message is so diluted it would be hard to impress what the original message was even. I too am not a religious scholar but I have taken many courses at the university to recall some things. Perhaps even those recollections are flawed in some way due to the passage of time and new data altering the old information.

[Antioch]

You are assuming that the message is transfered from one generation to the next in an oral culture. This is not so, it is policed by all generations, constantly correcting the story, message so forth for accuracy. It is possible, if they are vigilant in preserving it. Rituals are like this. Do the same thing the same way all the time for generations, I can totally see a message remaining intact and unaltered.

The masonic degrees I took and the ones Franklin took are the same degrees, unaltered by time. I meet with masons all the time to teach them these degrees...every and, the, an is carefully placed and monitored. Get hundreds of people from all generations keeping track and they'll let you know when you screw it up. You'd be surprised by the process, most are, but it works. Very well in fact.

I've learned 4 hours of unique dialogue this way.