Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Dec 15, 2008 12:23:55 GMT -5
Figured I'd open a thread with just general interpretation questions.
Example: The level 1 spell Ray of Enfeeblement indicates that it applies a penalty to STR, not damage or drain. Are undead still immune?
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Mar 26, 2009 20:57:40 GMT -5
Question number 2, since question 1 got no reply:
A specialist wizard cannot cast spells of her prohibited schools, even from scrolls and wands. So a few questions about this and its limitations...
1) Suppose a caster selected a illusion and something else as prohibited schools. Could he activate a ring of invisibility?
2) Suppose a caster selected necromancy as a prohibited school, and was multiclassed with cleric. Could he cast animate dead as a cleric spell?
3) Suppose a caster selected illusion and enchantment as prohibited schools, and then multiclassed as a beguiler (or sorcerer or any other spontaneous caster). Can the specialist wizard with prohibited spells cast these spells as a beguiler or sorcerer?
I know these may seem like odd questions given the rarity of an arcane caster multiclassing with another arcane casting class, but with some of the neat dual progression casting classes (there is one for druid/arcane caster, as well as the ultimate magus for prepped arcane/spontaneous arcane, and the classic mystic theurge) I can see it coming up in a game at some point.
I'm not a particularly big fan of metamagic most of the time, but fueling it with (Ultimate Magus) arcane spell slots from your spontaneous class in exchange for lower caster level is a pretty fair tradeoff IMHO. I also like Mystic Theurge, though the lack of class features is a bummer.
Anyway, what is the ruling here?
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Post by Dragonsrule on Mar 26, 2009 21:36:29 GMT -5
Since, I will 99.9% not play an Arcane caster, I can't really say. However, IMO, I don't see why he could not use the Ring of Invisibility. He himself is not casting the spell, but activating something that another Caster put the spell on. But again, what do I know.
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Post by Rincewind on Mar 27, 2009 7:22:30 GMT -5
1) Yeah, since non-wizards can use it, so can he.
2) If he has it on his Cleric list, sure. The prohibited schools only apply to the class it's prohibited in.
3) See #2.
If you need references, I can dig 'em up, but it'll take time.
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Post by Tomas on Mar 27, 2009 7:56:15 GMT -5
As for how the rules effect #3 I don't have a clue.
As a player who tries to create a character with history, not just "what classes are good" mentality I would not use the prohibited schools of magic for any class. I think I would even shy away from magic items from the prohibited schools, unless the DM gave a really good reason to use them.
As a DM I would want the player to explain why he/she is prohibiting schools in the first place and to come up with a reasonable reason for then ignoring the prohibitions in another class.
Tom
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Mar 27, 2009 8:58:27 GMT -5
Yea, I think Rince has the rule right, though I think Tomas has the zeitgiest nailed. I couldn't find the reference either, but it is clear that you can't activate wands and scrolls from these schools. www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#schoolSpecializationI think that the magic item thing gets sticky - the point of specialization is to force a sacrifice in exchange for something desirable to balance it all out. Granted, I don't think that 2 schools is that big a deal, but then I know people who get all worked up about it and can't imagine giving up even one school. I usually drop evocation and necromancy, or evocation and enchantment. But it is annoying periodically to not be able to fireball something when you want to. I've always assumed that the prohibited schools was a mechanical way to represent your dedication to your Art, as well as the "must take 1 of your 2 spells at level up from your specialization school" requirement. Like if I study for my Government exam too much, I won't be able to study for my Philosophy exam. I've always chosen the schools based on my characters personality when playing - most of my wizards prefer control and subtlety to flashy magicks. So evocation always makes sense. And necromancy always seems so evil...
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Post by Rincewind on Mar 27, 2009 16:51:04 GMT -5
Well, yes. I mean, there's nothing prohibiting Himesh Freas from casting fireballs left and right from a wand, but he's not going to. I was answering more in a rule sense than a spirit of the character sense. I would say, though, that in Freas's case, with his prohibited schools of Illusion and Enchantment, that he's learned since picking them that some illusions can occasionally come in handy and they're not as bloody useless as he once thought. Enchantment, on the other hand.... it's still easier to freeze someone's head in a block of ice than spend time convincing them to help you So he would have those reasons for trying some illusion items.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Apr 4, 2009 21:31:04 GMT -5
Another good one, more of a DM interpretation than anything else...
Anyone ever look at the Fouchlucan Lyricist PrC from Complete Adventurer? It is really cool - full advancement of arcane and divine casting, bardic music advancement, druid casting in light metal armor (like a chain shirt)... but the earliest you can possibly get into it is after character level 10 (need 13 ranks in perform string instrument). Also need speak language (druidic), which can only be learned from another druid, or by taking levels in Druid. So it is clearly a class designed for a bard/druid multiclass.
The ugly thing is that you also need Evasion. So 2 levels of rogue... which kills your caster level. Or two levels of monk... ditto. But what about something like Divine Oracle? It is a PrC from Complete Divine, which advances divine casting (druid in this case). It also gives some weird ability at level 2 that functions, according to the description, as evasion, but in any armor. So it is not evasion, but it is essentially the same thing.
Would we allow this in a game? The reason that this would be desirable from a player standpoint is that, if I calculate right, it gets 9th level druid spells if you take:
Bard 1/Druid 4/Divine Oracle 2/Green Whisperer 3/Fouchlocan Lyricist 10 (very thematic, only issues from a mechanical standpoint are the Evasion issue and Green Whisperer coming from Dragon Magazine, but it is not a really overpowered class, actually relatively underwhelming except for druid/bard dual advancement for casting)
I think that, even though Fouchlocan looks really amazing on paper, it is well balanced. I mean, d6 HD and light armor/no shield means that its +1 BAB gets little real use except as an archer, bard casting has never been particularly powerful - cool, but hardly overpowered, and druid without wildshape is alot weaker than druid with wildshape. This doesn't even include the ridiculous rolls you would need to make this guy a melee or ranged combatent - need good WIS and CHA for casting, INT to get the steep skill requirements, and CON for Fort saves and HP. So altogether, a powergamer is not gonna want to run this build... just play Druid 20 w/natural spell and you have more raw power most likely. Likewise with Cleric 20, or Wizard 20 (or any varient with full casting PrCs like archmage). After playing around with an Archivist earlier, I can see 20 levels of this being dominating if you don't try to mix it with trapmonkey. But I think that this kind of casting makes for a really neat class to RP - weaker in combat than a Druid straight, but some really interesting things to do in the wilderness or even socially in town.
Even if you take away the Green Whisperer if you don't dig Dragon material, you can still sub in Combat Medic for 5 levels, taking out Divine Oracle and Green Whisperer, but still advancing divine casting. This I think is a lot dumber thematically, though.
So how would you rule on this?
PS - I normally don't care for Dragon mag, but issue 311 is really cool. Has some nifty stuff for bard/druid, as well as a bunch of variant cleric classes. At a glance, most of actually looks relatively balanced.
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Post by Rincewind on Apr 5, 2009 7:02:16 GMT -5
Well, one thing you'd have to remember is that you need those 13 ranks in Perform, which will be cross-class for at least the druid levels. Since one of your classes has it as a class skill, your max ranks will not be a problem, but you'll be paying 2 skill points for each point in it for some of those.
I'm not big on character builds that require that much work, myself. There's usually something seriously wrong with something that requires _3_ prestige classes.... and I'm really considering a "stick with it" house rule if it ever becomes an issue, where you need to complete one prestige class before you enter another, not just take a few levels of it for a nifty benefit and move on to the next one.
That all being said, I think it would be far easier to work with a DM on making your own PrC or altering one of the base classes if you're doing all that work just to get evasion.
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Post by grond on Jun 12, 2009 21:30:57 GMT -5
Back to the earlier issue with magic items that use magic from a prohibitted school, I think but I'm not sure that the key issue is spell trigger or spell completion. Wands, staffs and scrolls I believe have this descriptor. To use them, one must be able to complete the spell. Ring of force shield or ring of invisibility generate their effects without the spell being needed. None of the caster's energy or skill goes into it, nor can it. I'd also like to point out that a caster with the use magic device skill can use prohibitted scrolls, wands and staves, because they can use the skill to emulate a class feature or spell effect they can't otherwise do. My way of looking at it is much like Dmitri's in that the prohibition of any schools is the natural consequence for excelling in one. Since cleric spells take no study, they are granted, there isn't much of a reason to say a specialist wizard/ cleric couldn't use cleric spells from a prohibitted school (this is both my mechanical and rp based reasoning on the issue).
On to Dmitri's insane 30 class bard/druid. I would never allow it. Both druid and bard recieve numerous class abilities (druid gets one at every level, in addition to casting improvement, good saves, medium attack bonus and medium/good hit dice) which says to me that they are very intensive classes, in otherwords they require devotion to master, meaning mastering the aspects of both at once should not go anything close to seemlessly. I would approve a severely under powered version as a Druid 3, bard (whatever it takes to pull 3rd lvl bard spells) and then mystic theurge. This character would have much RP potential, some decent utility oriented options and would reflect the challenge of balancing a devotion to nature with a devotion to inspiring the masses. However, that is just me and my point of view. I am growing more and more to value and respect what a character does with more ordinary abilities more than what great number of abilities a character can have. (Yes I know that Hank had levels in 4 different classes by level 8, but that is something I mean to do less of).
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Post by grond on Jun 12, 2009 21:45:42 GMT -5
Odd question, but since so much of the gaming that we of this site are now talking about revolves around point buy, I think it bears asking. How does anyone else feel about taking a feat for which you do not meet the ability score prerequisite under normal circumstances, but you can meet said prerequisite using an item, a class ability or a spell? The best example I can think of is the "roll with it" feat which requires a con score of 20. That's steep in point buy, but a barbarian could have that while raging without nearly as much effort, and the feat would remain dormant otherwise. I'm only wondering how anyone else feels on the issue. The other thing to consider while judging that particular example is that a fight with a 16 str and power attack can be cursed (as the spell) down to a 10 str and would not be able to use power attack, or a bastard sword or dwarven waraxe one handed for that matter. In otherwords, the scenario works in the negative, you can lose access to a feat by having a score reduced temporarily, should you be able to gain access to a feat by having a score increased temporarilly?
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Post by Rincewind on Jun 13, 2009 7:01:30 GMT -5
Actually, this one's right out of the book. As long as you meet the prerequisites, you can take the feat, regardless of how they're achieved. But this does mean that if you no longer meet them, that you will lose access to the use of the feat, and (possibly) any feats which depend on it as well. So yup, you can have your stats lowered and not be able to use some feats. It makes sense- if your giant has some rock-throwing feats and you get your strength down to 5 by some wizard, he won't still be chucking boulders.
Not sure on the "lose access to the feats that depend on it" part, but fairly use. So for your example, you'd originally take the feat while you were raging- and if you wanted to take any feats that depend on it you'd probably need to be raging at the time as well.
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Jun 13, 2009 7:59:59 GMT -5
Yea, I'm with Rince on this one - for example, my druid will have Flyby Attack. It obviously works when I can fly, and has no effect otherwise. I essentially lose the feat when I am in human form. If I was playing a "big cat" druid a lot, I would take Multiattack to reduce the penalties on the secondary attacks.
I think it is fair to say that if you lose the prereq, you lose the feat until the prereq is restored. For example, you lose the STR to use Power Attack - so you lose access to it. But you also lose the ability to use Cleave if you have it, since Power Attack is a prereq.
As far as my beast of a build above, it really is more of a mental exercise than anything else - I can't imagine trying to play it across the board, from level 1. My thought when I looked at the Fouchlocan PrC, and the requirements, was that it was pointless unless you started at high levels. I mean, playing a character with 3 base classes before 10, 2 of which are casters who are losing caster level, one a melee/skill character who is bound by huge skill requirements for the PrC. I think it would be nearly unlivable for till it catches up in later levels, and even then not a powerful class, just interesting. But you are probably right - building a Thuerge type PrC (though hopefully less sucky) with the DM would probably make more sense.
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Post by grond on Jun 13, 2009 9:50:48 GMT -5
Not to jump on a band wagon here, but I agree with your judgements.
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Post by Tomas on Jun 26, 2009 8:02:59 GMT -5
Rapid shot...Quickdraw...Javelin (picell)
What do you think?
Rapid shot: 1 extra ranged attack at -2 on each attack using a full round action. Javelin is listed as a "Ranged Weapon" in the equipment list.
Quickdraw: Free action for ready a weapon. "A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow)"
Tom
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