Origins of the Holiday Tree aka Christmas Tree

[Lady Winter Wolf]

Since this question has come up, here is some information:

ALL ABOUT THE CHRISTMAS TREE
Pagan origins, Christian adaptation, & secular status


Please note the site this is coming from: Religious Tolerance.org which we should all have. *smiles at Dmitri*

[Dmitri]

ladywinterwolf said:

Please note the site this is coming from: Religious Tolerance.org which we should all have. *smiles at Dmitri*

Oh, come on LWW... can I pass that one up?

Though we disagree on many things, the virtues and even definitions of religious tolerance probably the least of them, I don't argue with relatively factual articles, especially when they themselves lack a thesis or main point. The author of the posted article doesn't have either, just a collection of facts and anecdotes about the early history of trees in Christian and Pagan religious practice. No harm in the dissemination of information, so long as it is at least reasonably accurate.

Maybe you are unaware (possibly because I might have never mentioned it) but I was a wizard and Druid before I was a Christian, and proudly danced naked beneath Arianhrod's full moon (probably not a picture that anyone who knows me really wants...) We venerated primarily Welsh gods and goddesses, and practiced what I guess might be termed "Celtic magic" - not really sure, it was very ritualized but I never bought a book or anything, there isn't a really easy tag to put on most magic-based faiths I guess.

So anyway, I have a Christmas tree (a good fake one from K-Mart), and hardly take offense. Have a good Solstice, and don't quaff too much mead!

[Rincewind]

For the love of whatever deity you please, PLEASE never again mention dancing naked under any circumstances, Dmitri.

Mind hurts, must stab brain with Q-tip.

[Lady Winter Wolf]

rince said:

Mind hurts, must stab brain with Q-tip.

Oh, I'd pay good money to see that.


Dmitri, I remember you told Kaber that you had been pagan at one time. Even though Druidism is a Reconstructionist path, there is not much out there that is factual. The Druids passed their knowledge via word of mouth; primarily through their bards. Whatever there is written down was recorded by the Romans, and, of course, they could only put down their interpretations of what they heard and saw of the people they had conquered.

[Dmitri]

Yea, we based most of our belief of off more of an early middle ages vibe I think - our "teacher" if you will seemed to have culled much of the info from the Welsh Mabinogion about the pantheon. The actual theology ran along the lines of the Good God, who manifested in a variety of forms like Goffanon of the Forge, Arianhrod of the Moon and Headland, Llew of the Sun, etc. Much of the ritual was taken from scraps of Old English poetry and such (she was one of the people who helped teach me to read Old and Middle English, and a little Welsh-Breton), though much was common sensical Nature worship. We never really pretended to be authentic Druids, since their is no written record that is reliable of the rights and path they followed, though some of the Church documents of the time speak about the Cele De, or Culdee, a Christian monastic sect that shared common ground with the surviving Druids in late Antiquity and the Early Middle ages (300-600 AD). Needless to say, the Roman church persecuted them viscously and they seem to have largely died out in Great Britian prior to the rise of Alfred the Great.

Anyway, that is where I think we took most of it from. Bonnie (our de facto leader) was originally from Wales, and she brought most of her traditions with her from there. We at least made a valient attempt to Reconstuct the practices from wdhat sources we had, and then fill in the blanks with stuff that just sort of made sense. The magic aspect of it was supplied via experimentation and her own experiences, ie. she gave me a notebook with rites and rituals, spells, etc. when she figured out that I was probably the most dedicated and naturally sensitive of the group.

Interesting time, and yes Rince, I will never again mention dancing naked in your prescence. ;D

[Antioch]

rince said:

Mind hurts, must stab brain with Q-tip.

You're supposed to stop when you hit resistance.

[Lady Winter Wolf]

Just wondering Dmitri, since you were a Druid, and are now Christian, are you now practicing Celtic Christianity?



Note: the link to Celtic Christianity is being used for explanation of that faith.

[Dmitri]

That is actually a more complicated question than many might imagine, though I don't know how well versed anybody is specifically on Celtic Chrisitianity.

As far as the brand espoused by the link you provided, I would have to say "No". The Ancient Cambrian Church of the Grail are the authors of said site, and I do take issue with some of their beliefs, enough so that I have never felt comfortable associating myself with this incarnation of the "Celtic Christian" church.

But do, in the interest of understanding and mutual respect, allow me to express a few things that I believe that you, LWW, might find a little different than much of the "rabid religious right" that I am usually a part of. Please, everyone not of my faith (and even those of it) realize that I am not trying to proselytize, I am merely expressing a few beliefs that are less than standard in the modern Protestant Evangelical Pentecostal church.

Religious Dogma Below - Read at Your Own Risk

* * * * * * * * * *

1) Sex is good. Very good. ;D God created it for humans to enjoy, as a physical mirror of the level of intimacy He wants with his followers, His bride. As such, sex and sensuality are NOT EVIL. They can be twisted and perverted to evil ends, but they in and of themselves are not evil. The demonization of sensuality was a method of control for the medievil Church over its clergy and its laity.

2) Women are good. Very good. In fact, in the Bible, one of the names given to God is El Shaddai, literally "the strong breasted one". "Shekinah", or the tangible prescence of God that indwelt the Holy of Holies in the Temple and Tabernacle, is a feminine linguistic construction. The Sacred is both masculine and feminine. It should not be demonized, and should be worshipped as it is presented - a full gamut of emotions and types, God as Father and Mother. The Holy Spirit in the New Testament is often presented in a feminine light, as God's overshadowing "mother hen's wing".

3) Nature is good. Very good. Paul tells us (as do many other biblical passages) that nature declares the glory of the Lord in visible form. Paul even goes so far as to say that because of the view of God in nature all people are without excuse, ie. cannot justify atheism, because God's glory is revealed there. So a reverence (not worship, mind you) and respect for nature is a Christian ideal, even if many Christians choose to ignore it.

4) Experiential religion is good. Very good. God wants us to experience him in a real, tangible way. Christ said that signs and wonders should follow those that believed. God is not anti-personal. He wants us to experience a close relationship with Him like a friend. So expression becomes important to my faith - poetry, dance, song, all of these things when they are created out of love of the Creator are just as valuable (often more so) than any liturgy crafted by someone else, so long as they do not contradict the Scripture.

5) Humans are good. Very good. The idea that all humans are evil I frankly find a little silly - after all, Genesis says that God created us in His image. Since He is good, we are good. Adam's sin (note I said Adam's sin, not Eve's sin) did not destroy our goodness, it masked it. Yes, I believe we need a Savior, and that is Jesus. Heck, that's what Christianity is. But I think we have a dual nature, a war within that rages for us to do right and wrong. I think God helps us to win that war. And while this might not seem like much, it is a far cry from the "all men are evil at heart", absolute depravity of Augustinian Christianity. Augustine overestimated the power of evil - it simply can't stand next to Good.

* * * * * * * * * *

Anway, I hope I managed to keep that in line with what is acceptable on the boards here. If I have offended anyone with the above, please accept my apologies and forgive me, it was not intended that way. It is simply a statment of unusual doctrine in the "ultra-right" Christianity that I represent. Hopefully it sheds some light on me as a person.

Dave

[Lady Winter Wolf]

Very well written Dmitri, and it indeed explains much. There is a similarity to many pagan ideals within each item also.

The major difference being, that the majority of pagans believe in polytheism (more than one god and/goddess). However, I have met many a pagan, mostly Wiccan, who believe that the God and the Goddess merge to become a deity they call "The One". I'm not sure if this is an attempt to hold onto the Christian "God", and just looking at him (her?) from a different perspective. I did ask several times how this differs from the concept of the Christian "God", and I was told "because the God and Goddess are two different beings, therefore, polytheism, but they just happen to be able to merge into one being."

[Kaber]

Very well put indeed, dimitri. My beliefs as a Christian follow more along those lines than standard doctrines.

For instance, nature. It says in the Bible that even the rocks will cry before us. Nature- earth, fire water and air will all bear testimony to our deeds. I don't think most Christians really think about that.

And giving thanks. I believe the lord likes to be thanked, often, and so he should. I thank him almost daily for what I have now, compared to what I had before and I think that, as I am genuinely thankful he is genuinely happy to send his blessings.

Here's one that nearly got my Mom and others excommunicated from her church. The Holy Spirit is both a living entity and an object. I believe it is the free willed "presence" of God acting in accordance to his will yet of its own accord. It is of God and one mind but can and does move independently of him. Heheh...go figure that one out.

I do believe in Angels and Devils. Of the war that wages in another dimension but right in front of us. A war waged daily.

I believe in praise to God. Christianity is not about don'ts and can'ts but about possibilities. About what can happen. not about what you can't do.

As you stated, dimitir. People are good, it is the nature of Entropy (which we call sin) that causes the decay in moral, intellectual and spiritual boundaries. Like a cancer it grows and spreads but we were created good and are good.

Oh and the power of blood....

Ok, I've babbled enough. Keep in mind these are just my beliefs. They are somewhat skewed by the standards of organized religion but it all makes perfect sense to me....

.....Of course I'm not sure where christmass trees come into this....




".....Says she talks to angels,
They call her out by her name...."

[Dmitri]

Thanx - I am working on the tact thing. You're taught in college, especially as an English or History major, to always, ALWAYS, express your opinion as fact.

Unfortunately, outside the realm of academic papers, I guess that doesn't work out so well...

[grond]

Unless you are trying to gather support for a war, then it seems to have a good precedent for working (or not as the case may be)

[Dmitri]

Well, ya gotta remember, I have trained myself to use that "essay" mentality in all of my writing and conversation. It's sometimes hard to turn off for casual conversation.

[Lady Winter Wolf]

dmitri said:

Well, ya gotta remember, I have trained myself to use that "essay" mentality in all of my writing and conversation. It's sometimes hard to turn off for casual conversation.

Sort of like a lawyer who cannot help but scrutinize whatever is said in a conversation, and makes a person feel self-conscience.

Anyway, back to the "Christmas" tree, I know that Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source, but it does have some information, if looked into further, can make sense of the origins of this tradition.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree