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Post by pigdish on Nov 29, 2006 23:21:22 GMT -5
I have to admit though that I feel better when the party is balanced. Meaning there is a Melee, Healer, Rogue, Caster, Range, etc.
Granted if you don't have that rogue to find the traps or unlock a door more creative methods must be used to get a smiliar result. I don't know how many times my paladin found traps by setting them off. lol
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Post by dragon on Nov 30, 2006 12:38:32 GMT -5
Yeppers. Put a monk in the front and your trap problems are moot.
Brings me to yet another peeve. DM's that lace scenario's with traps when it wouldn't be plausable. Note I didn't say realistic, but with the exception of a tomb, who traps their freakin houses? How many of the dm's out there even trap their underwear drawer?!!? Can you see waking up at 3AM to use the jakes and running head-first into your Symbol of Death trap? Yeah, right......
Thieves are only in the game because Gygax was a big Grey Mouser fan. And while I'm sure they can serve some other purposes (like target practice) would you really want one watching your back (for something other than looking for your loot to steal) or watching over you (and your loot) while you sleep? Thought not...
And before I get all that junk about "But they're 'scouts'" nonsense, I'm looking at this not as some academic, theory-bound exercise, but as I've seen them played since 197freaking2! The back-stabbing, loot stealing, lying dirtbags they really are. I'll concede that there the exception or 2 out there, but who speaks about 'exceptions'?
Again, IMO, YMMV.
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Post by MjolnirH on Nov 30, 2006 21:00:09 GMT -5
scouting is what rangers are for, and with the exception of trapfinding/disabling, they pretty much have some of the same important skills two of which are move silently and hide in shadows, LOL and those same skills are also offered with the monk class. so we have the monk to set off the traps, the barbarian's trap sense to find them (or a clerical spell) and the ranger to scout ahead casing monsters heh, who needs a rogue
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Post by Dragonsrule on Nov 30, 2006 21:40:23 GMT -5
As a rogue in 1 of my campaigns, I resent that. I have not taken anything from my party members. Well there was 1 time, but it was their fault. I mean who would let the rogue go and sell all the loot by himself. I proceeded to get a bill of sale for 1000 gold less than what I got. But that is all part of Role Playing. I have not done it since.
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Post by MjolnirH on Nov 30, 2006 22:47:44 GMT -5
thanx for making his point for him that point being, if you can't trust your party members who can ya trust
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Post by pigdish on Nov 30, 2006 23:05:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure if it was your intention but your post made me laugh Dragonsrule.
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Post by rincewind on Dec 1, 2006 9:43:28 GMT -5
Well, I'd much rather have my thief in LGG1's party than our semi-deceased "Hey, what's THIS trap do?" necro. Better a careful thief than an ADD-driven spaz, I'd say.
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Post by Dragonsrule on Dec 1, 2006 9:47:58 GMT -5
Well, I love to make people laugh. But if you were to look at my rogue, he is strickly a Lock and Trap rogue. I have no skills in Sleight of Hand, so will never pick my groups pockets. I like to think of myself as a Procurer. I somehow manage to get stuff to help our party, may not be legal most of time, but I can supply for them. Plus the time we stole the treasury from the city, that was not my Idea. I just got us into the vault to get the Item we needed for someone. Plus is it my fault the DM made him ultra powerful. I mean he had to make a DC 50 Lock, just to keep me out of the one room we needed to get into, and thats only 1 level from being done.
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Post by dragon on Dec 1, 2006 9:57:29 GMT -5
Easily fixed. It's called a knock spell... It's not the set of skills that turns my gut, it's the 'role' that (the very vast majority of) thieves put upon themselves. That is the stereotypical money grubbing, stealing from the party, worthless, POS's. IMO. YMMV
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Post by pigdish on Dec 1, 2006 14:49:50 GMT -5
My characters don' t have a problem with Rogues that like to steal from other people. As long as it is not from the people in the party. If Starkadder (Paladin) finds you stealing from the group he will try and kill you on sight. Pigdish and Gizgard (orc shamen) might be a little more forgiving.
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Post by dragon on Dec 1, 2006 14:53:50 GMT -5
I'm all for nuking them and do when I get the chance. It's rather disappointing to note the looks of horror as if "I" did something inappropriate. Next time I'll simply knee-cap them and hand them to the local constable.
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Post by MjolnirH on Dec 1, 2006 21:17:01 GMT -5
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Post by grond on Dec 2, 2006 21:06:37 GMT -5
With the wide range of skill sets, there are some tasks such as spying and assassination that are best performed by a rogue. Besides, that whole just playing my character excuse is usually best answered with a solid punch in the jaw (out of character). Anyway, I'm not going to stand for bashing one of the original base classes when all of those twinked out unbalanced miserable excuses for whatever are still out there in the new books. I'm talking about warmages, dread necromancers, duskblades, the ninja base class, and pretty much every other class Vera ever thought about using. I'm tired of seeing prestige abilities in the hands of low level base class characters. Duskblades- no character that can cast arcane spells, let alone 9th level ones (Ithink they can, but I'm not 100% on it) should be able to have a base attack bonus of 20 at lvl 20. Dread necro's- I don't really want to begin on this one Ninja's- these were a prestige class even in oriental adventures. Warmages- aren't so bad, but still casting in armor, even full plate at lvl 8, is ridiculous. Again, not as bad as the others. Swift action. I'm walking down the street when a guy stabs me in the back, it happens, the knife draws blood, when suddenly, I dissappear, cause I'm a ninja, so the stabby guy realizes he missed, no blood, no death (at least for ninja me). This is the premise of how a swift action works. No rolling for anything, just BAM, done. GRRR
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Post by pigdish on Dec 2, 2006 22:41:45 GMT -5
Again I'm 100% in agreement with you Grond.
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Post by rincewind on Dec 3, 2006 10:02:07 GMT -5
Some minor corrections:
Duskblades only get 5 levels of spells (According to the wikipedia, I don't own the book), and have specific spell lists. So they don't get to pick what they know, really. This is meant to try to balance the class, although Grond is correct in that they sure as hell shouldn't be able to have a BAB of +20 at lvl 20.
Warmages cannot normally cast in full plate. This can only be done after level 8 IF they have taken the feat, I think it's Armored Arcana or some such, to cast in heavier armor. It should be noted that if a bard takes this feat, they can cast without penalties in medium armor.
Well, that's it for the corrections. Dread Necro is certainly a powerful class, but their spell list certainly leaves something to be desired, particularly at lower levels. Ninja and samurai both should probably only be prestiege classes, but hey, what are you going to do. One could say the same about paladins, probably.
And certainly using swift actions that way seems pretty wrong. They were meant more for things like Featherfall, where if you really took the time to cast it you'd be *SPLAT* before you did.
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