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Post by Antioch on Jan 10, 2007 9:22:04 GMT -5
Yes, indeed! I was refering especially to the Gnostic texts, of which the Gospel of Judas is one of many found to date to the early christian era. The Gospel of Judas is the most recent and I have yet to read it. Something about Judas being asked by Christ to offer him up as a sacrifice for the sins of the world and that he was not the betrayer depicted in the other gospels.
I argue early church history with the uninformed ofter and they are always amazed when they go to confirm and find that I'm right. Most think that the gospels were written in their current forms directly by those disciples....when they were actually compiled some time around the conference at Nicea in the mid 300s under the rein of Constantine of Rome. (From what I've been able to determine, anyway) Obviously placing them well outside of the lives of Jesus and any of his immediate disciples.
Don't get me wrong, the bible has many important moral truths dispicted in it through story and allegory. It is a very useful book and I continue to make my way through it from cover to cover (which is a long journey by the way) as I have time to read something not work related.
I have fun using peoples arguments against them and getting them confused about what they are holding as truth. My favorite one currently is about one being damned to hell for not accepting Christ.
goes something like this:
If God is omnipotent and perfect, then he doesn't make mistakes. So, God made a covenant with man before Christ. Why would some one who keeps that covenant be damned to hell?
Response - because Christ is the savior and accepting him is the new requirement from God.
Ok, so God screwed up....sorry, my bad. Ignore what I said before...this is the new way now.
Response - well, not quite, the 10 commandments are still God's law and must be abided by.
Ok, but the original hebrew states that commandment 1 is "There is but one God, and Yahweh is his name" seems like that should read Christ then"
Church is clever here....they form the idea of the Trinity to get around this conflict...which, by the way, is a pretty recent invention as far as the history of the church goes.
ok, so God can revise himself.....yes
ok, God before Christ has spoken through the prophets, why couldn't he continue to communicate with us in this manner after Christ's death? If they agree that he can....then the last prophet that God spoke directly to was Muhammed. So, he's got the latest and greatest revision to God's plan for us.
They always adamantly disagree.
But why not, the Muslims belief that Jesus was a great prophet of God...indicating that they believe it is the same God. They have respect for the Jews and Gentiles, they just feel sorry that aren't working on the most current version of the latest software....SoulSaver 2.0
The more I question, the more convuluted the answers get. I never get anywhere though and often just piss them off and get told I'm going to Hell for questioning Christ. They get me all wrong, I want to validate things in my own head and hit a brick wall any time I question people to do just that.
Hey thanks. Jesus may love you, but I think you're an ass.
Antioch
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Post by Antioch on Jan 10, 2007 9:26:48 GMT -5
That's why I like my latin inscription so much
Do not look without, for truth resides within.
Believe what makes sense to you, don't let others brow beat you into submission.
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Post by drumdrum on Jan 10, 2007 11:40:46 GMT -5
Christian. Protestant. Methodist to be specific, but arguing denominations of Christianity is just arguing semantics, IMO. They all say the same thing, they just use different words for the most part.
My wife and I attend church regularly (I'd say 3 times a month, if not more) and we're both fairly strong believers. I don't believe in evangelism - I'm not going to try to convert anyone, and I'm not going to tell you're wrong if you and I disagree. All I ask is that if you want me to respect your beliefs, then don't go questioning mine.
My faith has been tested on numerous occasions, most notably the recent death of my son, but I find that my over-riding belief that God exists, that God created everything, and all I can do is attempt to comprehend it as a mortal, has never lapsed.
I think my faith boils down to this: God is God. Jesus is the pathway for me, as a Gentile, to reach God. Jesus is needed because Man is trapped in sin. I have the choice to embrace sin, or to reject it, accept Christ, and struggle with living a Christian life, reaching God at it's end.
Wish me luck.
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Dmitri
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D&D Geeks of the World Unite!
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Post by Dmitri on Jan 10, 2007 12:10:10 GMT -5
not to argue or anything, but a better response to Antioch's argument goes like this:
*******
God is omnipotent ... keeps that covenant be condemned to hell?
Because the covenant was a temporary fix till a perfect sacrifice could be made. Blood of ox and goat was a symbol for blood of perfect man (Jesus). Once the perfect sacrifice was made, the old covenant was complete (not destroyed). All that is left is to accept the sacrifice as valid. Someone who accepts said sacrifice will desire to keep the moral law.
(This eliminates "God screwed up..." argument)
Original Hebrew states ... Yahweh is His name.
Yes, absolutely. But that does not discredit the idea of a Trinity. Without sounding overly simplistic, think of God as a cherry pie. Not one of the lousy store bought cherry pies, but a home made one. You can cut the crust into 3 pieces, but the gooey goodness in the center filles the pie as one ingle pie. So - you have 3 parts, one whole. We still call it 1 pie, with three parts or pieces.
Church is clever ... recent invention ... goes.
Are you sure about that? Church is 2000 years old, latest Trinity could have entered would be Nicea, early 300's, 3/20ths of the way into the history. Earlier if you accept an early date for the canonical gospels ("I and my Father are One" verse). So God does not revise himself, merely completes what He began.
God before Christ ... latest and greatest revision to God's plan for us.
The issue is the word "prophet". Jesus, in Christian doctrine, is not a "prophet". He is God in flesh. Islam rejects this, thus tossing out any compatibility with Christianity. Certainly God can still speak through prophets, even today, but He doesn't change. He won't contradict Himself as He spoke through Christ. So a Christian cannot embrace Islam as a brother faith because of the position of Christ's divinity.
*******
It's sad that many Christians can't discuss their faith rationally and must resort to "You are damned to Hell" arguments. I hate that. But it doesn't change the overall truth of the message. I won't try to determine who is "saved" or "not-saved". That is for God alone to decide. Thankfully, I'm not Him. But according to the Bible, it isn't God that damns man, it is man that damns man. Our own choices prepare us for Heaven or Hell. So in the end, the responsibility rests with us.
Hope this helps answer your questions, and gives you a better response to your questions.
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Post by Antioch on Jan 10, 2007 15:10:25 GMT -5
A much more intelligent and rational explanation than anyone has offered to me so far (including clergy). I have alot of respect for your views and insight. I may be mistaken, but I read that the trinity was actually created some time around the era just before Martin Luther, so the 1400-1500 time frame, so that would be recent. Luther himself talked much about this idea in his subsiquent writtings and is a very large component of the Lutheran faith, and was accepted by the Christians of today. Though, I am only human and could have incorrect information or recollections.
I do agree that it is sad that many Christians can't rationally discuss their faith and react very defensive if you confuse them in their own scripture recitation. That turned me off to the church for many years. That and the Sunday Saved's....I'm a total ass and shnishter all week, but I go to church on Sunday, so all's good. I don't think that was what Christ really had in mind for accepting his teachings and truly finding salvation.
I see alot of benefit in the church though. The community aids its members. I enjoy the music and the ceremony. I feel more connected to my wife and family after attending. I just have unanswered questions that only I seem to be able to work out the answers to to my own satisfaction. It's just a slow process.
Most the questioning paths I follow provide alot of information to me
1 - are they knowledgeable (have they read what they are preaching)
2 - are they being overly judgemental of everyone not in their mindset
3 - have they internalized it themselves to make sense of it (your cherry pie analogy is a perfect example of this....making extremely abstract things make sense in our world and minds)
so on
This exposes alot about their character, desires, comfort with their religion. If you can comfortably have an adult discussion about contentous religious issues, you must be extremely comfortable in your faith. And God bless you for that!!
The ever ready to be corrected when wrong and open to discussion knight,
Antioch
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Dmitri
Land Owner
D&D Geeks of the World Unite!
Posts: 1,466
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Post by Dmitri on Jan 10, 2007 16:06:53 GMT -5
It's also refreshing to find agnostics open minded. Typically (in my limited experience) they have been as dogmatic as most of my Christian brothers. You are correct that Luther elucidated the Trinity doctrine in its modern form. But in the 4th century the Council of Nicea wrote their now famous creed outlining the Roman Catholic church's essential doctrine at that time. Borrowed verbatim from another site, it goes:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Anyway, this is the original recitation of the doctrine of the Trinity that I can find, other than implicit spots in Scripture that lead to this belief. Anyway, here's to open and friendly dailogue!
**Dmitri raises a horn of mead to salute Antioch, a noble and thoughtful individual**
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Post by pigdish on Jan 10, 2007 19:27:24 GMT -5
Hey all, good discussion. I figured I'd throw in a few thoughts on the topic.
I also believe that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are essentially the same religion in that they are supposed to worship the same one God. If I were to think of one thing that separates Islam from the other two belief systems it would have to be idolatry. Islam is a rewind so to speak of God's message to humans, which is to believe that there is no God but God.
In Islam everything is considered 'muslim', lower case 'm', meaning that everything is a creation of God. This is an important point because that makes all babies born 'muslim', every animal, rock, plant, the world, and the heavens are connected. A Muslim, capital 'M' is a person that follows the world of God, the religion of Islam, which incidentally means the Word of God. There are no sacraments or procedures are prescribed for a person who practices the faith of Islam. One needs only to pronounce or to believe in the contents of the Declaration of the Faith: "I bear witness that there is no God but the Almighty God and that Mohammad is a messenger of God." Interestingly when a person from another religion decides to practice Islam they are referred to as "reverts" not "converts", because they are returning to the original faith of the Word of God.
Islam can be a little tough to understand because it sheds all the 'fat' that got slathered on the original Word of God. Islam has no hierarchy (priest, pastors, pope, nuns, whatever). The only thing that would be similar would be Imam but that can be any Muslim, man or woman. Every Muslim has an equal direct connection to God. In fact there isn't even a need for a church or mosque. These 'places of worship' are just a means for community building.
So in Islam when some Christians speak of Jesus being God, it is a huge bone of contention, because now you are worshiping a person of flesh and blood instead of God. Jesus (A.S.) says in the Bible,
" ... and a little while and you shall not see me; and again a little while, you shall see me because I go to the Father. (Bible, John 16:16)
You have to have "Blind Faith" to understand how a person can be God incarnate. Blind Faith is also rejected in Islam. A Muslim must have 'faith' in God, his message, and the messengers (prophets) but not 'Blind Faith' since humans were given the ability to reason. Jesus is a beloved prophet of God, just as Mohammad, and Abraham are. Muslims believe that Jesus was taken to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world.
Another interesting thing is that it is believed that Jesus foretold the coming of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad.
"If you love me, Keep my commandments. And I will pray to the Father and He shall give you another comforter that he may abide with you forever." (Bible, John 14-15/16)
"But when the comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me, and he also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning." (Bible, John 15-26/27)
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the spirit of Truth will come, he will guide you into all truth, for he shall speak not of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that he shall speak, and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and he shall show it unto you." (Bible, John 16-12/14)
The "person" whom Jesus (A.S.) prophesied will come after him, is called Pargaleeta in the Bible . This word was deleted by interpreters and translators and changed at times to "Spirit of Truth" and at other times, to "comforter" and sometimes "Holy Spirit." The original Greek and its meaning is "one whom people praise exceedingly." The sense of the word, then, is applicable to the word Muhammad in Arabic, since Muhammad means "the praised one."
On the documentation ("Holy Books") of the three religions only the Holy Qu'ran is unaltered and (personal opinion) Holy. The Torah was lost and the Bible was written by men hundreds of years after Jesus died. Unlike the Bible, which has been rewritten countless times, the Holy Qu'ran is forbidden to alteration by God.
I find it interesting that something that is supposed to unite the humans seems to create such a rift. I think my dad has something when he always told us "be a good person, respect others and you will have a good life". It's a simple message that my little brain can understand.
Dang, one last point sort of a pet peeve I hear all the time on the boob-tube (aptly named). The word "Jihad" does not mean "Holy War" or "Kill all the Americans" or anything aggressive. Those meanings are perversions of the word by the zealots. It actually means "struggle", specifically internal struggle. The struggle that everybody fights within themselves to be a good person, a better person.
Anyway I hope I provided some information and didn't manage to offend anybody whilst doing it for it was not my intention.
Peace out! And in the words of two wise(?) sages, "Be excellent to each other."
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Post by grond on Jan 10, 2007 21:32:46 GMT -5
Wow, lots said here. I'll have to read it some time when I have more time. I'm halfway between an agnostic and a nihilist. I used to think atheist, but I don't believe enough to be an atheist, that would imply that I actually believe there is no god. I don't think agnostics can actually be dogmatic, though I may be mistaken. I think Agnosticism is the more a non-belief. Not saying "I believe there is no god" but rather saying "I don't really know". Sometimes, I think I go as far as saying "I really don't believe in anything outside of my own world". Other times, I remember how much I believe in science, and the discoveries and theories presented by the scientific world. A point I feel like making here is that science has never said "There is no God" only some of its contributers, and I can't imagine they were speaking from a very scientific standpoint at the time. Additionally, it was a scientist (of sorts) who mathematically proved the existence of God (was that Descarte? I kind of don't think so, but he is the one who comes to mind for me right now). I guess I'm not really sure where I stand on spirituality. I believe a lot in the remarkable potential of human spirit, when it is truely applied and allowed to grow, but I think we're losing touch with that a little more each year. Oh well.
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Post by grond on Jan 10, 2007 21:57:01 GMT -5
When you say Satanism, do you mean the sort that Benjamin Franklin supposedly practiced, or are you refering to "Devil Worship" or demonic cultism? Allow me to clarify my question a little. The bible has a lot to say (at least on the very small level on which I understand and know it) about the after life. It places much importance on living almost for the sake of the hereafter (heaven in this case). The satanic bible, I think, (mainly from somewhat reliable hearsay) has little or nothing to do with Satan, Beelzebub, or whatever you call the arch-demon of Christianity. It is a book that focusses spiritual life on persuing daily pleasures in life, rather than saving up for after death. (feel free to correct, I'm not 100% clear on any of this) The last six people I heard claiming to be satanists meant that they try to pull some wicked ritual of sacrifice out of the Necronomicon (coolness[ not really] points to anyone who can tell me the true nature of that book) while burning their neighbor's cat at a bonfire. I've known several more of the latter and probably no intentional practitioners of the former. I knew a guy in high school who said that he had 3 religions "paganism, shamanism, and druidry". Not to be too pedandic, but come on now. Druid is the word Caeser gave the wise men of the gauls and britons. It isn't part of the name of a religion, it's a latin descriptor for a celtic figure of importance. Shamanism, more than half of the religions out there had shamans. Paganism has a little more meaning these days, but it just comes from a monothiestic descriptor for the polytheistic religions of the older world. My point is, say what you want about tolerance of other people's beliefs, but know what you're believing in and make sure it holds a little water. Okay, so I guess that wasn't my point since my opener was a question, but I said it anyway. Whether or not there is a hell full of demons waiting to claim the souls of the depraved, there are viscious demons that lurk beneath the skin of us all. All it takes is the right mix of ignorance, greed, hatered and fear to fall prey to them.
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Post by MjolnirH on Jan 10, 2007 23:30:48 GMT -5
the Necronomicon is a work of fiction, if you want a full and quit informative wikipeida description of the book use this url en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necronomicon as for the areas of satanists and satanism in today's religions ask LWW she is quite knowledgeable in this area. as for being tolerant, I am to a degree only meaning that I've done alot of reshearch on supposed religions and beliefs, examples of this are the otherkin(don't get me started on these guys) and the all emcompassing belief in our earth protector Spitzaloid (could be spelled wrong) <--- these guys have several books which actually do sell, are quite expensive, and were written much like the necromonicon was (in the book) by a guy who was channeling. as far as any intelligent plausible religion is concerned you believe what you want, I'll believe what I want and we'll get along just fine ;D
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Post by Antioch on Jan 11, 2007 8:26:23 GMT -5
This is a good discussion. More activity from this one thread than any other I remember (save the pit for obvious reasons).
I like to correct people all the time. I have a buddy who claims to be an atheist, but he's not. He's an agnostic. He's in the same boat. The church institution ruined Christianity for him and turned him off. That many modern Christians forget what Christ truly intended in his words and actions. Jesus reaches out to the outcasts of life, the leopers, the degenerate, the lost. Not shuned and astrocized them. He helped rather than criticized. It's funny that even his disciples didn't understand what he was really getting at.
The story of Jesus helping the Roman soldier was a perfect example of this. Jesus' disciples were totally baffled and upset that Jesus would help their oppressors. But Jesus had a point, enemy as you may view him, he is still human and worthy of assistance.
Side note...where did you get information that Ben Franklin was a satanist? Whereever it was from was a perversion of him belonging to the Masons. There is a long standing pharse noticion that Masons worship a satanic deity known as Baphomet. This is actually a carry over from Philip the Fair of France's unjust pursicution of the Knights Templar in the early 1300s AD and is untrue. Philip was jealous of the Knights influence and holdings and sought them for his own. He breed lies and tortured the Knights until they "admitted" these charges. Put me on a rack for a week and I'd probably tell you I was Marilyn Monroe if it would make it stop.
That, is a whole nother discussion though.
Antioch
P.S. I am familiar with the Nicene Creed....know it by heart. I must have misinterpreted what an author was trying to say that it didn't exist before Luther's time. Thanks for the clarification dmitri!!
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Dmitri
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Post by Dmitri on Jan 11, 2007 10:43:26 GMT -5
Yea, got to agree with Antioch - good discussion - especially because it has managed to stay rational and pleasant.
The thing that Christians seem to miss at times is exactly what Antioch said about who Christ came here for. He didn't mingle with the religious leaders of His day... but with the "publicans and tax collectors". Acceptance is important. The Church was never intended to be a social club, but an outreach center.
My only caveat to this thinking, is that you have to read the rest of the story. When Jesus was brought the woman caught in adultery, He said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And the world loves to quote this, explaining that people shouldn't "judge" them. But a few sentences later, Jesus asks the woman "where are your accusers" and when she replies that they have gone, He tells her to go "and sin no more." So yes, He accepted people as they were - and told them to change. He loved them (and us) wherever they may be, but He was not content to let them stay there. Sometimes we forget this, wanting a "milksop God" who tells us "everything is gonna be all right, I understand, you're forgiven" without saying "change - leave that bondage and burden behind - that sin only hurts you." I know I wish He would let me be sometimes... but it's for my own good. Anyway, sounding off for now...
Dmitri
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Post by rincewind on Jan 11, 2007 19:15:07 GMT -5
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Post by pigdish on Jan 11, 2007 19:26:47 GMT -5
wow, I had never heard of Jack Chick before and I wish I hadn't. lol
There is a good show on in Canada's CBC called Little Mosque on the Prairie. It's really funny and good but some of the humor may be lost on non-muslims. Check it out if you can.
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Post by pigdish on Jan 11, 2007 19:28:43 GMT -5
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