Interesting core concepts in 3.5 e

[grond]

I posted it in interesting builds in 3.5, but I also think it belongs here, since it is a core only handling of the Blackguard.

Start with a human rogue with at least 13 str, a good charisma and an evil disposition. You'll have to dump 2 points into a cross class skill, knowledge religion. This one should also have a decent dex and eventually a 14 wisdom.
The first 7 levels are divided between fighter and rogue, 3 in one 4 in the other.
The required fighter feats are power attack, cleave and improved sunder.
After level 7 (8-17) go into the Blackguard prestige class. What this gives you is a character with cleave that is very likely to be able to use it. At Blackguard 5, you get a feindish servant. This helper lets you flank every round at your leisure, by this time doing 3d6 extra damage. Against good foes you have smite damage to boot, as well as whatever power attack affords you. Since hide is a class skill much of the way through, and many of the servant options are small, such as the bat, this build can arrange flanking ambushes, aided by darkness to set the trap.
This character also has evasion and a reflex benefiting from 2 ability scores (thanks to dark blessing), one of which it can self buff with a spell (eagles splendor)
So, sneak attacking at a near full BAB, with power attack, good saves, utility spells + some light curing. I prefer going to fighter level 4 to get weapon specialization, then 18-20 in rogue, netting you a BAB of 18, 6d6 sneak attack and the first part of uncanny dodge.

Alternatively
You could do the first 10 levels in rogue and take crippling strike, then become a blackguard. Level 20 this way has a BAB of 17, and +8d6 sneak attack damage, that also does 2 points in str. This Version has a Higher reflex save, but a lower fort save, fewer feats and a slower advancement (it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to go up to 8, then take the prc as this leaves you missing out on the cool rogue ability, which could just as well be improved evasion or opportunist, over the next 10 levels). Also, it will likely have less HP.
Additionally, one could argue a case for using a rogue barbarian mix (both classes have roughly the same starting age and chaotic tendencies. This gives good save (rage helps will in combat), excellent damage (more str means more spare attack bonus for power attack so lots more damage), More HP and if you round the build out with barbarian having more levels you get the added fun of improved uncanny dodge. This guy is like the ultimate hunter, waiting quietly with his pet, tucked away out of sight and then exploding into the fray with a devastating attack in a surprise round (uses bull str in advance, rages at beginning of surprise round, free action, str minimum 21, likely 24 damage bonus +7-+10, uses Falchion for higher crit range [15-20 at high levels] power attack 4, +8 on damage, plus 5d6, plus smite damage if foe is good +10) Used on either side of a doorway, this mode at high levels is like a death trap. Barbarian 7 rogue 3 leaves him DR 1/-
Finally
Can everything else, Ranger/ Blackguard. Free rides the two weapon fighting tree until tenth level. Less sneak attack bonus damage (3d6), twice as many attacks and 2 helpers (evil rangers keep their animal companion and still gains the fiendish servant), a bat for easy flanking and a wolf to try tripping? or a horse to ride? The sky is the limit. This also has more spells and better saves. Power attack is less useful, but this one has a potential 7 attacks per round, any one of which could cleave.

[grond]

Supposing a fighter chose to be proficient in repeating crossbows, and then took improved critical at higher levels for the heavy repeating crossbow. This fighter now has a 17-20 threat range with a ranged d10 damage weapon. 2 feats, making a low strength, point bought fighter have a decent chance at beating low DR with ranged attacks.

Or, we could go even higher level for a moment and apply those 2 feats to an assassin. This gives the assassin a better chance of doing nearly fatal damage to an enemy before his death attack even kicks in.

I would even venture so far as to say that the heavy repeating crossbow is at least tied for the best ranged weapon available if selected with the correct feats.

Now this one is a long shot, but supposing a fighter with a strength of 10 and a decent dexterity and intelligence took up the repeating crossbow. This fighter also cross classed into the hide and move-silently skills. Here is where it gets wacky, up until 13th level, our fighter is just a mobile dex based fighter (all focus and specialization feats in heavy repeating crossbow, then add on the good ranged weapon feats as well as dodge and mobility) with a slight penchant for deception (also cross-class a few ranks, 4 to be specific, in disguise). After level 13, make him an assassin. He only gets up to level 7 in assassin, but that gets him everything important other than hide in plain sight and 1d6 sneak attack damage. Now, the fighter-assassin makes a sneak attack that does 1d10 +5 (17-20 x2 crit) +4d6. Done from a window, this attack can be performed multiple time in a single round, with the first one having a chance at killing the target outright.
The real benefit, aside from the much better attack bonus allowing this particular assassin to hit heavily armored targets much more predictably and still do good damage, is that this version has the combat prowess to also fight his way out of a slightly tight spot, especially if took weapon finesse and picked up a second weapon tree with the rapier, or even combat expertise and improved disarm, carrying a heavy flail.
The other side of the road is a similar stat character, only using a barbarian. He doesn't get all of the attack and damage boosting feats, but he can still afford a few of the necessary proficiencies. He can afford the skill points for cross class skills a little better and has a little more in combat durability. He winds up with DR 3/- and greater rage if he is forced into melee. The major discrepancy is making the disguise skill fit thematically. I think of this version as being less likely to attempt to disarm a foe, and more likely to use rage and a falchion. He would have improved critical for both his ranged and melee weapons of choice. I also see this version as having the track feat, since survival is a barbarian skill, and doing much more assassination of people traveling away from cities.
That's my askew take on an assassin. Remember, they don't all have to be rogues, monks and rangers.

[Dmitri]

I know that we are trying to get cool core ideas out here, but a repeating crossbow fighter? It doesn't seem to play to his strengths. He burns a feat to get proficiency, as well as at least 3 or 4 other archery feats and probably the Focus and Specialization trees, and in the end does 1d10+spec+enhancement?

I don't see any reason (other than RP/flavor/concept reasons, which are all perfectly valid) not to use a composite longbow - save the feat, add the STR bonus. The only way I can see the crossbow dude being useful is for a gnome or halfling fighter, because of their STR penalty.

Figure a 32 point "ranged fighter" build, starting out like this with Mr. Crossbow:

STR 10
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 8

You get a +5 to hit at level 1 (I am assuming human, with your first 3 feats being point blank and precise shot and EWP: repeater - otherwise you are really sucktastic) from DEX and BAB. I'll assume your level 1 character actually has access to a heavy repeater, too. He does 1d10 (average of 5.5) per round. Assume now level 5, you have a +1 and a handful of feats. Maybe...

Weapon finnesse - cause you will have to melee someday(2), weapon focus (3), weapon spec (4)

You have a +11 to hit (4 dex, 1 focus, 1 enhancement, 5 BAB) and do 1d10+3 (average 8.5)

Now take Mr Longbow...

STR 16
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 8

At level 1, assuming you have the 400gp for a repeater, I think you can afford a composite longbow. For the same money, you get a composite +3 STR rating. So, with the three feats you take Point Blank, Precise, and Weapon Focus, yielding the following

+5 to hit (3 dex, 1 bab, 1 focus), and 1d8+3 damage (average of 7.5)

at level 5, you can also have specialization (4), but instead of finesse and EWP, we can take Rapid Shot and whatever else - maybe a little Iron Will love, or Mounted Combat to start towards Mounted Archery. Assuming the same kind of loot, the archer will now have a

+10 to hit (3 dex, 4 bab, 1 enhancement, 1 focus) and doing 1d8+6 (average of 10.5)

So... the moral of the story is that the archer outdamages the crossbowman, and doesnt burn nearly the feats (you will almost NEED to take rapid reload at somepoint here soon, probably level 6). No this does not mean that you cant make one - I like it, so long as the group is not gunning for high power. But it is very limiting and the extra crit range is not going to make up for the consistently smaller damage output. Since the longbowman can buff his damage with Bull's or with Gauntlets of Ogre Power, as long as he can get the right bow he will outstrip the xbow by light years.

[Dmitri]

I would like to reiterate though that I think if you use a Small race (I like Gnomes, but Halflings are probably mechanically better for it), this works really well. Or taking the EWP for Repeater with a primarily melee character just for the coolness factor.

[grond]

Well, the idea was effective ranged damage with a low strength fighter. Also, in terms of progression, the ewp feat would be like second level. He would start out with a light crossbow, and spend treasure towards the heavy repeater.
Another part of the build was just as you said, coolness factor. It seems like nobody uses the repeaters. A light repeater is pointless, since rapid reload gets you just as many attacks per round, and lets you use rapid shot ("as many attacks per round as he could with a bow" is in the feat description for rapid reload). Characters without strength need to go for the biggest damage die and the most other bonuses possible. Also, I think a 17-20 threat range with a ranged weapon is rather cool, especially if you burn higher level treasure to make it a shocking burst weapon (bestows property onto ammunition).
Mainly, I wanted to present something different, that could have been over looked. I think it RPs well with the assassin, almost like a sniper.
Finally, the biggest difference I noticed in your 2 point buy arrangements is that the 1st one has a better AC and initiative, as well as the chance to more effectively use hide and move silently. Also, crossbowmen can use shields (still more AC) if circumstances call for it, or wear a buckler, taking no penalty as they need only reload, not attack, with the shield hand (buckler AC doesn't apply, but the buckler is already there if it comes to melee). Unless rapid reload applies to changing the clip (I would think it does but the rules with the feat and the rules with repeaters do not state as such) rapid reload is a wasted feat. I agree, the bowman is more straight forward and flexible, but the crossbow troop his its high points.

[Dmitri]

Yea, I do read Rapid Reload that it applies to the clip, but that is just my own reading, and would always be a DM call. I think that the hide and move silent issue is minimal, though - you only gain 1 point towards each.

The crit range is nice, but not enough to make up for the lost damage, in my opinion, especially if you got Imp Crit for the bow too.

That said, I did caveat myself then - I think with a small character that it is pretty rockin - beware the gnome of death, shooting from below! This would just be a tough character to play out in a more powergaming type group, where you have a bunch of damage monsters, without running into the irrelevancy issue.

But all that said, I'd run it in most games - though I think that some of the weapons in the PHB are kind of lame, and have no real use. This might be one of them. I mean, really - a light xbow has an average of 1 pt damage less per attack, and saves you the EWP feat. That said, I have always thought that every fighter should take at least PBS and Precise Shot, or get a Precision weapon (gives Precise Shot when wielded), maybe even WF and Spec for a ranged weapon.

[grond]

The issue with taking focus for a ranged weapon, let alone specialization, is that in trying to actually build a fighter that is capable of being valid in a heavy melee, even the fighter is a little feat starved, in my opinion. At higher levels you get no argument from me about focus and specialization, but at low levels Dodge and Mobility, combat expertise, power attack and cleave are often times so much more important. I think improved initiative for fighter, particularly medium and heavy armored fighters, is more important than weapon focus. Not to mention the value of iron will and lightning reflexes, that can only be taken on normal feat levels.
A versatile fighter, to me, is more important than a serious damage dealer. I've begun to think of the fighter almost more as the character who eats attacks of opportunity for the rogue, or in some cases the ranger, who will do the real damage (ranger with favorite enemy bonuses).
My opinion is that the fighter should always have combat expertise and improved disarm, along with a heavy flail or a ranseur. This being because only full base attack bonus characters have a good chance at disarming most of the times, and of those, only fighters can really spare the feats to take improved disarm when it isn't necessarily part of their concept. Disarm is so important to me because it can remove other things like a spell component pouch, or a belt of giant strength +6.
All that being said, I have been frustrated by more than enough fights with foes who stayed out of reach. I am also aware of the incredible value of at least some ranged capability.

I'd like to add one more use of the crossbow build that runs along side RP reasons. Historically, not every culture pushed the use of bows, because crossbows are effective almost regardless of physical strength (unless I have been wholely duped, the Normans were successful conquerors who did not make heavy use of bows). If the world is built in such a way that certain weapons don't appear in certain regions, the DM at least needs to have a few options for maximizing the value of otherwise pointless weapons.
Speaking of pointless weapons, a few more include; the greatclub, the morning star and the short bow. Most of the others either give a decent special option, better critical, better damage die or some combination of the above. The mace is not on that list because it has the same hardness and hit points as a heavy steel shield, making it very challenging to break, at the very least.

[Dmitri]

Morningstar does piercing and bludgeoning, thus bypassing 2 different DRs simultaneously, and is simple to boot.

Greatclub can be enhanced with things like Brambles and Spikes from the ranger or druid spell list.

If the fighter is feat starved, I have to point out the others are then feat dead. I would argue that Cleave is generally not that great, and Great Cleave is nearly worthless (I know there are rare instances, but really - if you can Great Cleave through multiple enemies, then odds are good they couldn't hit the fighters AC anyway).

I do agree that a DM can make them worthwhile - like with the Forgotten Realms and the regional differences.

As for Normans and crossbows, they were very primative at that point, and supplanted in large part by the English longbow (in terms of effectiveness) all across Europe after the Battle of Crecy. But they did use them, because even an idea could point and shoot. Granted, they usually pointed, shot, and then drew a spear for melee (too much of a pain to reload), but they did get used.

[grond]

The fighter is only feat starved in the sense that all it has is feats. The others get class features, skills, spells and combinations (it tells me this is misspelled but the spell checker finds no mistakes ) of all of the above. Fighters get feats and the second best hit points. They are marginally starved in that it is difficult to make up for their shortcomings with the options given them, and even more difficult to wisely choose which shortcomings to try to cover up, and which ones to leave alone. It's easy to build a fighter with great attack and damage bonuses, for example, who is deterred by even the lowest level charm effects, or who is beaten down by everything that can disarm. This is why I say that the fighter is feat starved.
Cleave is good at lower levels, when the enemy has an AC that can be hit while still power attacking, and lower HP (Gnolls, Kobalds, Orcs, especially Orcs). Clearing 2 in one round, or 3 if the character has combat reflexes and a glaive, can save a major risk of HP loss and or death. The feat only works for a while, but then at higher levels it give and edge on some types of grouped monsters, allowing the fighter to start on a second monster immediately after finishing the first. It can make a big difference if the fighter is surrounded by wooves, and a little tired of being flanked, and then tripped.
And what has DR n/piercing? I know skeletons and zombies have bludgeoning and slashing respectively. And some plants have DR bludgeoning, or DR slashing, but I don't remember seeing anything with DR piercing.

[grond]

I've just thought about this again, piercing weapons don't often beat DR, but they can be used underwater with either a reduced penalty or no penalty, can't they? Does that mean that the morning star is effective underwater by D&D rules? Seems a little off.

[Dmitri]

I'd say no to a morningstar underwater - just a physics thing. As for DR/piercing, see the Rakshasa entry for 1... that is the one I was thinking of when I wrote the post. It's good AND piercing, but piercing nonetheless.

And I agree that fighters need something to make them worth going into for a full twenty levels besides just feats. That's why I am so pro-Pathfinder, at least with respect to the fighter.

When I have time, I will post my new build for a cool bard - it uses barbarian and bard and eldritch knight, probably barb 2/bard 8/eldritch 10, a two hander, and recites epic verse to you as it kills you. And it can cast some neat spells and works in social situations. Granted, its HP sucks, but with the right tactics, it looks nifty. Also will post an archer or xbow bard which is hardly novel, but is probably a hell of a lot safer in the long run.

[grond]

Bard-barian, excellent. Decent armor options, uncanny dodge and a 40ft speed, plus healing spells and spontaneous casting.

Here's an idea, probably done to death though; A few levels of barbarian, maybe just 2, several levels of sorcerer and then 10 levels in dragon disciple. (I suppose you could use bard for the caster) The result is a self buffing character benefiting from a moral bonus, a massive racial bonus and the potential to enjoy a size bonus (enlarge person) and a an enhancement bonus (bull's strength). This build eventually will fly at 80ft speed, it will have multiple attacks (Multi-attack feat) at monk-like bonuses and a very large number of low level buffing spells, as well as attacks like searing ray and shocking grasp to augment damage output. Plus a 6d8 breath weapon and a large number of d12 hit dice.

[Dmitri]

So, Dave's Bardabarian... I have never played him, but I think he looks cool.

Human Bard1/Barb1/Bard2/Barb2/Bard3-8/Eldritch10

Feats - really, everything is open; I like the Spring Attack line and save enhancers...

1: Track (thematic and makes use of bard skill points)
1H: Dodge
3: Power Attack
6: Iron Will
9: Mobility
11B: Improved Crit
12: Lightening Reflexes
15: Spring Attack
18: Combat Casting

Stats (32 point build) - needs to add points at 4 and 8 to CHA to get 6th level spells

STR: 16
DEX: 14
CON 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA : 14

You end up with these goodies

+18 BAB, +17 CL
6th level bard spells
Good skills for a lot of levels
+1 feat and +1 skillpoints/level
tracking
+2 inspire courage
+8 bardic knowledge
countersong
fascinate
suggestion

Weaknesses include

bad Reflex saves
limited spell selection
really horrid save DCs (just focus on buffing and info gathering
UMD is not maxed out, and ends up cross classed in 12 levels
bad going into epic without high level spellcraft
weak HP

All in all, I think he is interesting.

He focuses on charging, though you could replace the Spring Attack line with Mounted Combat if the campaign is right for it. He has a high enough BAB to Power Attack, especially with good buffs and enhancements. Best of all, he is not useless out of combat, though he can't keep up with a full bard for social skills and the like.

[Dmitri]

In a campaign setting like that of LGG5, a whip wielding bard could be cool. One of the oft overlooked aspects of combat it seems to me is that you can dual wield without penalty if you attack with only 1 weapon per turn. So something like this becomes interesting...

Fighter 1/ Bard 19 (1 level of bard, 1 fighter, the rest bard)

Stats - for this you need a serious balance of stats - INT for feats, DEX for to hit, STR for checks, CON for HP and saves, CHA for spells; 4 and 8 go to CHA, others go to DEX or STR

STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 14

Feats

1: Combat Expertise
1B: Imp Disarm
2B: Weapon Finesse
3: Imp Trip
6: Imp Init
9: Great Fort
12, 15, 18: Whatever

Anyway, what I like about his is that it actually makes use of the whip proficiency, and is realistic in terms of chance to disarm and trip. Granted, this fella will never be a combat monster, but it gives a character focused on social skills and non-save spells something to do in combat encounters. And with full points in his UMD skill, he can use support wands and such.

EDIT: Actually, you can ditch Finesse and probably dump some DEX to get a higher STR if you don't mind the hit to AC... dropping to a 10 DEX gets you either a starting CHA of 16 for spells or a starting STR of 16 for hitting and damaging.

[grond]

Don't forget that with the average base attack bonus almost the entire way through, the extra strength is necessary to be truly effective in disarming, otherwise he's never going to do much more than disarm a one-handed weapon from a similar size and level opponent.
I'm wondering, apart from the extra feat, hit point and attack bonus, why take the level in fighter? A character starting out as a level 1 bard wouldn't be able to take the weapon proficiency anyway. Doesn't it make sense to just stick it out as a bard starting out with combat expertise and improved disarm using a rapier, then switch to the whip at level 3, or use the two as you suggested. Then work toward spring attack by level 12. All of the way along the feats in that tree remain very helpful, and with a little strategy the bard may manage to disarm an otherwise brutal enemy like an ettin.
I must admit that I'm not very experienced playing casters, but I would definitely favor a quick caster level progression, over a multi-class level that only pays off once in my character's growth. I'm probably not making much sense.